Start Problems

[mactiger]

Ivan, I'll agree that sometimes it's almost impossible to tell if a competitor has loaded a round in the chamber. It's not hard to tell, though, if there is a magazine in the gun. Why anyone would elect to start with an empty chamber is beyond me, but more power to them if they do it.

L2S, I always check my magazine, too. I think most shooters do. But, I've seen some very experienced people forget to put a full one in the gun after loading a round from their loader magazine. Anyone can do it. I think there's a basic difference between making a planned reload and making an "oh $hit" reload. Although, you are correct, the risk is always there.

I think this is being beat up on enough--we'll probably never agree one way or the other.

The rules say do nothing, so I guess doing nothing will be the order of the day.

I still don't like it, though.

Troy

[ErikW]

If someone in the squad peanut gallery sees the shooter fail to fully load, and the squad mate calls out, and the shooter fixes it, do one or both of them get procedural penalties for coaching?

[Detlef]

can't stop being the antagonist, Erik, huh?

I surely am with Troy on this, especially since the *assist the shooter* has been publicized over and over again w/i USPSA. But then again, here's a new rule book and we better get used to it....

--Detlef

[mactiger]

If someone in the squad peanut gallery sees the shooter fail to fully load, and the squad mate calls out, and the shooter fixes it, do one or both of them get procedural penalties for coaching?

Yes.

[BDH]

I've got a question, why was he allowed to take a couple of practice draws after a round was loaded into the chamber?

TonyH,

Since I think your question was aimed toward me, I'll answer it. Three posible answers....

1) Brand spankin' new Nationals RO could have screwed up.

2) Upon more reflection I'm not sure I spelled this out correctly. I think he was standing, loaded the gun, took a few sight pictures, and then maybe sat down and assumed the positon. I'm not 100% sure that he practiced his draw from that position (although, I 'think' he did)

3) Flex's response........

The bottom line is that I was a little suprised at how much more gun handling the International shooters do on the line than the US shooters (although, after working a bunch of major matches, I am not sure I would make that same claim today).

[AikiDale]

I have to agree with Troy on this as well. Blame it on Jay. I wish I had a buck for every time he told us in the level 1 course the RO's job was to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire.

[dminor]

Hi Ivan,

I realize that it is not the RO's duty to check the competitor's gun. For some reason it has always been part of my routine, it could have something to do with my short stature, so guns on a regular person tend to be at my eye level.

I feel this rule makes me, as an RO look like a range nazi. Right or wrong that is just how it makes me feel. I can always tell if there is a mag in a gun, I cannot always tell if there is a round in the chamber. That is what I find contradictory. I am just glad that in all the years I have been an RO this has only happened to me one time.

The new command "If clear" does at least roll off the tongue fairly well. I believe it is only going to be a little tough on *old* ROs to get use to it. In Italy I only got it wrong a couple of times.

BDH-I do not know where you got the idea about international shooters doing more gun handling on the line than US shooters. In Italy this month, shooters came to the line very ready to go. US shooters who shoot outside of our country will find matches much harder for them with the new rule book, especially the taking of sight pictures.

[BDH]

BDH-I do not know where you got the idea about international shooters doing more gun handling on the line than US shooters.  In Italy this month, shooters came to the line very ready to go.  US shooters who shoot outside of our country will find matches much harder for them with the new rule book, especially the taking of sight pictures.

Denise,

Re-read my post..... I did say that, but I also said that I didn't think I would make the same claim today. That comment was based on my 2001 experience, and I remember commenting about it to my CRO who basically said, 'yep, you're right'.

[Tman33_99]

I personnally will repeat the LAMR command and emphasize if needed. If the shooter says "I am ready" or something to that effect, then I will continue. If the shooter asks me why I am repeating then I will tell them.

tman

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

The only "conflict" in this thread is the RO "feel good factor".

If I see a competitor fail to insert #2 magazine after chambering a round with #1 magazine, I assure you I feel like shit that I cannot tell him, but I'm also conscious of the fact that if I do tell him, I'm directly affecting the outcome of the match. Sure, under the "feel good factor", you can argue that your silence by not warning him of his oversight might cost him the match but, on the other hand, what if the guy wins the match, thanks in part due to your warning?

My worst (and truly gut-wrenching) experience of this occurred when I was CRO of a 160 point long course at the 1997 (?) Australian Nationals in Perth. The Australian Open Gold Team arrived at my stage (their final stage for the match), and there were only a few points separating them. One of the Gold Team chambered a round but forgot to reinsert a fresh magazine, so he holstered his gun with a round in the chamber but with an empty magazine well.

Despite seeing this, I said nothing and proceeded with the range commands from "Are You Ready?".

Of course when the timer sounded he fired a single shot, he soon realised what he had done, so he inserted a magazine and continued, but the delay cost him about 5 seconds initially, but the error totally threw his concentration and he basically trashed the stage. The end result was that he came 7th overall in Open Division. Now had I warned him, I'm certain his match result would've been much better, but should an RO have such an influence on match results?

The "feel good factor" aside, my answer was, and remains, no.

[Neil Beverley]

I completely agree with Vince (sorry Troy and others).

My take on this follows 3 possibilities:

1. On the same stage with one RO working it on Day 1 and a different RO on Day 2. One of these ROs "assists" the competitor and the other doesn't.

2. Same as above but for 2 different stages.

3. Now this one is tougher but more significant. If you "assist" the competitor who hasn't loaded a mag into the gun, what about the poor b*gger who inserts a mag that isn't fully loaded? i.e. insufficient rounds to complete the stage. It's has the same effect - an unexpected reload. We can not and must not start checking every mag.

By RO interference the results of a stage/match are/could be changed.

Vince gives a good example of how tough (on the RO) ROing can be at times and if we were ever to "enjoy" taking the tough decision then we should quit, but the fact remains there are many competitors in a match and we must do our best for all of them and that is not always served by a single act of kindness.

[mactiger]

Aw, Neil, you always take Vince's side!

(Mother always liked you best, too.)

I do see the point, and it's happened to me as well. I also agree that if one starts enjoying making the hard decisions, it's time to get out of the game.

Consistency and equitable treatment are key to ensuring a level playing field, and while I will comply with the rules, it's still going to feel bad to have to stand by and watch someone do this.

Troy