bigbrowndog Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 not only do you need to know when to use it, but you need to know who to listen too. there are several posters here with excellent finishes at major matches, a lot of gun knowledge and reliable weapons and then there are not. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 My Young's Super Light carriers arrived. On a set of not so good kitchen scales, they weigh in at 6.6oz. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Sure. Listen to the right people. I took a class from this guy who has won SMM3G, the Nationals, Rock Mountain, Fort Benning, etc. He prefers an upper with a dust cover and an FA. I paid $600 for that info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 And there's another National Champion at Rio Salado that prefers no FA, and went so far as to push Sun Devil to make uppers with shell deflector but no FA. I paid nothing for that info... Mick Sure. Listen to the right people. I took a class from this guy who has won SMM3G, the Nationals, Rock Mountain, Fort Benning, etc. He prefers an upper with a dust cover and an FA. I paid $600 for that info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Absolutely! We all need higher level shooters to determine if we should get one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It don't matter as long as it works. I'll be testing the Young's Super Light carriers this weekend and report back on reliability, recoil impulse versus a full weight carrier, etc. Mick Absolutely! We all need higher level shooters to determine if we should get one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Sweet. For a frame of reference can you also weigh your full weight carrier on the same scale to get a better reference? 6.6 oz is way different from Tod's list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 The Devil is in the details. Todds post refers to BCG (bolt carrier group) and includes the bolt,firing pin, etc. His weights are only off from mine by .1 oz. for a complete BCG. My JP Lmos carrier only weighs 6.6 oz M16 carrier weighs 9.3 AR15 carrier weighs 9.1 Bolt group adds 2.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 A bit touchy RS, my comment was not directed at you merely that there is much info from people on the internet that have little knowledge or experience, and WE must listen wisely. I 'm glad to hear you took a class. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Looks like the Young's Super Light carrier weighs the same as the JP LMOS carrier. I'll measure an M16 and AR15 carrier on the same scales for additional point of reference - although I suspect I'll get the same numbers you just quoted. Mick The Devil is in the details. Todds post refers to BCG (bolt carrier group) and includes the bolt,firing pin, etc. His weights are only off from mine by .1 oz. for a complete BCG. My JP Lmos carrier only weighs 6.6 oz M16 carrier weighs 9.3 AR15 carrier weighs 9.1 Bolt group adds 2.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon9 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Here is the weight of each carrier COMPLETE(carrier, bolt, firing pin, retaining pin), at least on my scale. NIB, no carbon build up or deposits, just oil on each from the manufacturer. JP JPBC-3 QPQ 8.45 oz Young MFG SLC(super light carrier) 9.30 oz Young MFG AR-15 NM Light 10.55 oz All of them are great carriers, pick one, tune your operating system to your liking via springs, buffers, comps and even adjustable gas and shoot more. Good technique will allow you to shoot almost anything fairly well. My uncle shoots a Colt AR-15 he bought NIB at Yellow Front(yep, that long ago) for around $135, better then I can shoot my "high-tech" modern AR. Of course he did shoot Camp Perry quite a bit, only proving my point further. edited for typos Edited June 2, 2011 by carbon9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) So it looks like the Young's SLC setup is a tad heavier than the JP. Maybe that will give the Young's SLC a reliability edge for those rifles without an adjustable gas block? Mick PS - tell your uncle I'll give him $200 for that old AR :-) Here is the weight of each carrier COMPLETE(carrier, bolt, firing pin, retaining pin), at least on my scale. NIB, no carbon build up or deposits, just oil on each from the manufacturer. JP JPBC-3 QPQ 8.45 oz Young MFG SLC(super light carrier) 9.30 oz Young MFG AR-15 NM Light 10.55 oz All of them are great carriers, pick one, tune your operating system to your liking via springs, buffers, comps and even adjustable gas and shoot more. Good technique will allow you to shoot almost anything fairly well. My uncle shoots a Colt AR-15 he bought NIB at Yellow Front(yep, that long ago) for around $135, better then I can shoot my "high-tech" modern AR. Of course he did shoot Camp Perry quite a bit, only proving my point further. edited for typos Edited June 2, 2011 by MickB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 So it looks like the Young's SLC setup is a tad heavier than the JP. Maybe that will give the Young's SLC a reliability edge for those rifles without an adjustable gas block? Mick Actually, the reliability edge will go the other way given the same gas volume. The one thing everyone is forgetting, or ignoring, is the contact area of these carriers. They are essentially doubled (F STILL equals ma). The force to move a lighter JP given the surface area and mass is reduced as compared to a Mil-Spec. However, the momentum is reduced since it weighs less. With the SuperLight Young's, the force is slightly MORE as compared to a Mil-Spec. Both will "wear" the upper receiver less. All of these things have interplay: barrel, bullet, powder (charge and burn rate), springs, lube, gas port size, gas reduction via adjustment, buffer weight. Get too light with a non-suitable mix of variables and you start to have extraction issues or worse. Too heavy and you only short stroke. The window is pretty large, but if you get too close to the edge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I very much agree with your last paragraph Markco. Lack of reliability with any of those carriers would not be due directly with the carrier itself, but with something else in the system that does not work in harmony with it. It is a balancing act of sorts. All the rifles I have built using the JP Lmos carriers have run flawlesly. As do builds with full weight carriers. It does take a bit of experimentation sometimes though. That's the fun part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Not quite sure I understand the first paragraph, Mark. We're talking about the force required to move the recoiling parts. The area of the carrier bearing up against the buffer face should be similar for the JP and Young SL, should it not? Mick So it looks like the Young's SLC setup is a tad heavier than the JP. Maybe that will give the Young's SLC a reliability edge for those rifles without an adjustable gas block? Mick Actually, the reliability edge will go the other way given the same gas volume. The one thing everyone is forgetting, or ignoring, is the contact area of these carriers. They are essentially doubled (F STILL equals ma). The force to move a lighter JP given the surface area and mass is reduced as compared to a Mil-Spec. However, the momentum is reduced since it weighs less. With the SuperLight Young's, the force is slightly MORE as compared to a Mil-Spec. Both will "wear" the upper receiver less. All of these things have interplay: barrel, bullet, powder (charge and burn rate), springs, lube, gas port size, gas reduction via adjustment, buffer weight. Get too light with a non-suitable mix of variables and you start to have extraction issues or worse. Too heavy and you only short stroke. The window is pretty large, but if you get too close to the edge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Yup. I only lube the four contact strips on the BCG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Yup. I only lube the four contact strips on the BCG. Correct. The contact between the buffer face and rear of the carrier is not what I am talking about, that has no effect sans contact erosion. Enlarge the contact surfaces between the receiver races and the BCG rails, as the Young's and JP do and, even lubed, the drag increases. The BCG does NOT move straight back, it twists some. The larger bearing surfaces reduce this effect, while also increasing the drag. Granted, it is small in the general scope of all the factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon9 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 So it looks like the Young's SLC setup is a tad heavier than the JP. Maybe that will give the Young's SLC a reliability edge for those rifles without an adjustable gas block? Mick PS - tell your uncle I'll give him $200 for that old AR :-) Here is the weight of each carrier COMPLETE(carrier, bolt, firing pin, retaining pin), at least on my scale. NIB, no carbon build up or deposits, just oil on each from the manufacturer. JP JPBC-3 QPQ 8.45 oz Young MFG SLC(super light carrier) 9.30 oz Young MFG AR-15 NM Light 10.55 oz All of them are great carriers, pick one, tune your operating system to your liking via springs, buffers, comps and even adjustable gas and shoot more. Good technique will allow you to shoot almost anything fairly well. My uncle shoots a Colt AR-15 he bought NIB at Yellow Front(yep, that long ago) for around $135, better then I can shoot my "high-tech" modern AR. Of course he did shoot Camp Perry quite a bit, only proving my point further. edited for typos Heck, I'd give him $250 myself It is so old it came with a thin aluminum plate between the pistol grip and lower receiver that protrudes enough to keep the switch from going to full auto. Back then I don't think Colt made any other changes then that to make it an AR-15 instead of an M-16. I could be totally wrong. It is kinda neat to see, hard to explain. His ancient benchrest rifle is just as odd and cool. It has a custom tungsten chrome moly blend barrel in which the rifling is still in perfect shape. Talk about a barrel that will last forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon9 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 So it looks like the Young's SLC setup is a tad heavier than the JP. Maybe that will give the Young's SLC a reliability edge for those rifles without an adjustable gas block? Mick Actually, the reliability edge will go the other way given the same gas volume. The one thing everyone is forgetting, or ignoring, is the contact area of these carriers. They are essentially doubled (F STILL equals ma). The force to move a lighter JP given the surface area and mass is reduced as compared to a Mil-Spec. However, the momentum is reduced since it weighs less. With the SuperLight Young's, the force is slightly MORE as compared to a Mil-Spec. Both will "wear" the upper receiver less. All of these things have interplay: barrel, bullet, powder (charge and burn rate), springs, lube, gas port size, gas reduction via adjustment, buffer weight. Get too light with a non-suitable mix of variables and you start to have extraction issues or worse. Too heavy and you only short stroke. The window is pretty large, but if you get too close to the edge... Now you got me thinking, thank you, seriously. I like details and logical points of view I should be taking into account as part of a complete package. I just broke out the calipers, the Young SLC and the JP and the top "rails" are pretty close to the same in surface area. However, the bottom "rails/lands/whatever" are 2.7220 long and .2070 wide on the JP. On the Young SLC the bottom rails contact areas are 2.7860 long and .1320 wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 You guys are seriously overthinking the significance of the contact points of the bolt carrier. The hamer and buffer spring exert so much more friction and drag to the operation of the firing cycle that the tiny differance in the surfaces you are talking about would be practicly unmeasurable. Those contact surfaces do not actually make any contact at certain times during the firing cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highxj Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 You guys are seriously overthinking the significance of the contact points of the bolt carrier. The hamer and buffer spring exert so much more friction and drag to the operation of the firing cycle that the tiny differance in the surfaces you are talking about would be practicly unmeasurable. Those contact surfaces do not actually make any contact at certain times during the firing cycle. I tend to agree with you. Based on the wear rate/patterns on the carrier, there is very little direct force acting on those bearing surfaces. Seems to me like any differences in bearing surface area between different carriers would be functionally insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 So, it comes back to overall weight of the carrier determing felt recoil impulse and reliability, then... ;-) Mick You guys are seriously overthinking the significance of the contact points of the bolt carrier. The hamer and buffer spring exert so much more friction and drag to the operation of the firing cycle that the tiny differance in the surfaces you are talking about would be practicly unmeasurable. Those contact surfaces do not actually make any contact at certain times during the firing cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 MickB Yes and no. Its really a part of a system. For a light carrier to be at its best it should be matched up to an appropriate weight buffer, effective comp, polished buffer spring and hamer, adj gas block and the right ammo. As well as a few other things. Its like putting together a race car. Put on a big carb and it helps, but add an appropriate cam, headers, intake, gearing, big tires etc, and now you got something. Any one piece by itself is not as effective as the whole package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 So do quarterly lessons from a GM who placed 7th at the IPSC world shoot, and getting DQ'd by Trapr at my 3rd Ft Benning (my best stage finish at Benning is 18th) count as experience? I still feel like a noob when I'm online with all these famous people!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01 Z06 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I like the JP better. I have been using JP for a long time with several different JP Rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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