IDPA Gaming

[hankfan79]

Read the stage description to see what is required. Don't ask clarifying questions that require subjective decisions to be made by SO's. If you find an expedient way to shoot the COF...do it and then let them reel in the aftermath. If they tell you no ahead of time you're screwed.

BINGO! If they don't say you can't do it, and it IS by the rules, then do it. For instance, never ask "can we reload down this wall?" If it is cover, you can reload down it UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE.

Shoot on the move or learn how

This is hard to do nowadays since it clearly states that if cover is available, you must use it. But it never hurts to ask THAT particular question.

[Singlestack]

How embarrassing! I had completely forgotten about this thread. I could not believe it when I saw I started it.

BTW, I still don't shoot IDPA. Shot it once and decided it was not for me. I didn't do any gaming though. I did have a hard time remembering not to drop my mags with rounds in them. I think I got a penality on every stage that day.

[steel1212]

Guys, round dumping and not getting caught is still cheating, not gaming. Gaming IS NOT cheating. Gaming is playing the GAME the best you can with in the rules. Round dumping on purpose to have a better reload is ROUND DUMPING and its CHEATING. Is it hard to call yes but you still did it and you know you did it. If that is the kind of person you are then so be it.

[Jadeslade]

Always help to tape targets!

Later,

Chuck

Excellent

[hankfan79]

Round dumping just sounds so harsh. I prefer "strategic shot placement".

[John Z Sr]

There are many ways to,,,,, oh forget it, it's more fun to figure them out yourself.

[sirveyr]

Read the stage description to see what is required. Don't ask clarifying questions that require subjective decisions to be made by SO's. If you find an expedient way to shoot the COF...do it and then let them reel in the aftermath. If they tell you no ahead of time you're screwed.

BINGO! If they don't say you can't do it, and it IS by the rules, then do it. For instance, never ask "can we reload down this wall?" If it is cover, you can reload down it UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE.

Careful... Never assume that the SO, or MD for that matter, knows the rules as well as you do. We all have been dinged with more than a few PE's because we shot the stage per the rules, but not the way that the SO thought it should be shot. I always ask the SO how they want me to shoot the stage. Why waste a good run, even within the rules, only to have it criticized and then penalized by an overly helpful Marksman SO? If the SO doesn't know the rules, get the MD involved and clear it up before LAMR.

[Pigdawg]

1. Ask a SO if you have ANY doubt that you might do something that they might issue a penalty for doing (especially if you shoot -0's fast.)

2. Follow the stage description EXACTLY as written and the briefing.

3. Hit your cover marks on the first entry into a position.

4. Know when to take -1's.

5. Practice reloads with retention so you don't rely on slide lock reloads when you have room to load behind cover.

6. Aim fast. In large part IDPA ONLY shooters have been trained to shoot slow because of the .5 -1 penalty.

It is a game, so everyone who is paying for them to keep score is gaming every stage. Those who do more than required by the stage description are just playing their own game with their own self imposed rules.

2. I still picked up a penalty for doing just this at a cup match. When the SO read the stage briefing of a found gun J frame stage. The SO read the description as you must fire 4 shots to the body and one to the head. So I did just that just not in the order he wanted... I did 1 to the head and 4 to the body and picked up a PE. When I questioned it as he read it as 4 and 1 not 4 and THEN one or 4 Then 1. Everyone on my squad said they were doing the exact same thing until I got popped for it.

One other tip don't show up to a match wearing a USPSA shirt and a painted grip STI some SOs might automatically think your a gaming rat(and I am) but with so many of the calls being at the SOs discretion you might get some extra attention.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Pigdawg

[JakeMartens]

When I shot IDPA in CDP I would use 7 round mags, start with 8 in the gun and reload into an 7 round mag.

Most times stages were less than 15 rounds. I would not have to round dump to do a slide lock reload saving that time.

I had a vest that had wieght in the right side and a metal hanger sewn in to swing back better as well

[hankfan79]

Read the stage description to see what is required. Don't ask clarifying questions that require subjective decisions to be made by SO's. If you find an expedient way to shoot the COF...do it and then let them reel in the aftermath. If they tell you no ahead of time you're screwed.

BINGO! If they don't say you can't do it, and it IS by the rules, then do it. For instance, never ask "can we reload down this wall?" If it is cover, you can reload down it UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE.

Why waste a good run, even within the rules, only to have it criticized and then penalized by an overly helpful Marksman SO? If the SO doesn't know the rules, get the MD involved and clear it up before LAMR.

I guess first off, you should know the BASIC rules if your going to be an SO (nothing to do with being a Marksman). True there are some rules that are unclear and up to the MD, but COVER and reloading are basic. For instance, all you have to ask is "Is this considered cover?" If the SO says "yes"...then you can reload from it...Unless otherwise specified. "All reloads must be done behind cover."

I have had many of SO's try to ding me for it but the worst they can do is give me a reshoot. People who normally criticize are the ones who couldn't think of it themselves. GAMING It's all within the rules and stage scripture.

Also, I believe there is something in the rule book about modifying your vest such as weights. That would technically be considered cheating since it gives you an edge.

Edited April 26, 2011 by hankfan79

[shootaglock89]

You can also outrun the SO. He can't ding you for what he can't see

[jdknotts1]

Looks like resurecting an old thread isnt such a bad thing. Got more replies in the last 24hrs than in the last ten years.

As I said I'm new to this. And I look for every way to use the rules to my advantage. I'm a real dick when it comes to semantics. I always enjoy using peoples words against them. But as of three matches I've shot so far, I've had 2 PE's. A small penalty but still makes you feel like an ass for doing something wrong.

[Forrest Halley]

This is hard to do nowadays since it clearly states that if cover is available, you must use it. But it never hurts to ask THAT particular question.

Sometimes there are moving to cover stages or moving stages from point to point like in the postal. To take it further...if cover is present on a stage it is considered available....CDP and revos be darned!

OK so round dumping is sketchy, but I see it as having legal and illegal forms. For example, you get away with three rounds on a two round target with a down 1. Can't stop somebody from making up in Vickers. You could also get away with four rounds on a target if a down three was present IMHO, because you had to ensure it was neutralized and you called at least one off shot and didn't really see the other. You can't gig somebody for trying to fix a bad shot or bad target. Now if that were to come off as a double tap on the last two rounds in the mag? If there are 4 0's or 3 0's and a -1, you've got them dead to rights, but if not you're going to look like a fool. If they are good enough to shoot to justify their extra shots, they're going to win over the MD also. "Here's where I thought I FTN'd and here's the stage description that says xyzshots Vickers. What seems to be the problem here?" Bottom line is that it's really hard to catch and justify because everybody who's good enough to do it for an advantage is usually smart enough to cover their @$$. With the RWR being as fast as it is those that want to burn time and powder for the slide lock reload "advantage" should have at it free of penalty.

[SoonerPast]

I admire the guys who "dump" a round on the first target of an array. They have the confidence that they'l make the hits on the rest and reach slide lock as planned.

[Loves2Shoot]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA, so I don't get the thinking that some folks use to justify dumping round to themselves. Personally, winning outside the rules of the game, would seem a pointless victory.

IDPA is very subjective and if you think breaking the rules (regardless if you can) to "beat the suckas" who play within the rules of the game you are paying to play is the way you need to roll, well that is up to you.

When I shoot I want to show shooters who don't shoot the other game, that you don't need to break the rules to win, you just have to shoot and move accurately and faster than everyone else.

[steel1212]

This is hard to do nowadays since it clearly states that if cover is available, you must use it. But it never hurts to ask THAT particular question.

Sometimes there are moving to cover stages or moving stages from point to point like in the postal. To take it further...if cover is present on a stage it is considered available....CDP and revos be darned!

OK so round dumping is sketchy, but I see it as having legal and illegal forms. For example, you get away with three rounds on a two round target with a down 1. Can't stop somebody from making up in Vickers. You could also get away with four rounds on a target if a down three was present IMHO, because you had to ensure it was neutralized and you called at least one off shot and didn't really see the other. You can't gig somebody for trying to fix a bad shot or bad target. Now if that were to come off as a double tap on the last two rounds in the mag? If there are 4 0's or 3 0's and a -1, you've got them dead to rights, but if not you're going to look like a fool. If they are good enough to shoot to justify their extra shots, they're going to win over the MD also. "Here's where I thought I FTN'd and here's the stage description that says xyzshots Vickers. What seems to be the problem here?" Bottom line is that it's really hard to catch and justify because everybody who's good enough to do it for an advantage is usually smart enough to cover their @$. With the RWR being as fast as it is those that want to burn time and powder for the slide lock reload "advantage" should have at it free of penalty.

In my opinion you really can't ever gig anybody for round dumping. I have a good index and if my contacts fall out I can't see anything but I could probably index on targets and get lucky but might want some extra incentive. Is that a crazy example, yes, but until we can read minds its one of those rules that is just to hard to call. The cheating part is on the shooter.

[steel1212]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA, so I don't get the thinking that some folks use to justify dumping round to themselves. Personally, winning outside the rules of the game, would seem a pointless victory.

IDPA is very subjective and if you think breaking the rules (regardless if you can) to "beat the suckas" who play within the rules of the game you are paying to play is the way you need to roll, well that is up to you.

When I shoot I want to show shooters who don't shoot the other game, that you don't need to break the rules to win, you just have to shoot and move accurately and faster than everyone else.

Exactly!

[hkguy]

Some things i have picked up on:

- speed is more important that shot placement to a certain point. if you drop a few -1's every once in a while its ok, but if your hitting all zeros your going to slow.

- weight or Barny mag in the gun side pocket work, keys, weight too

- really thing about how your going to shoot, where your going to reload and how

- most stages are set up so there is not alot of room to be "creative" at least where i shoot. On a side note, my match director likes to add in "gaiming" elements.

- dry fire practice is a must, along with both reloads

- weak hand/strong hand shooting

- I like to shoot towrds the back of the pack to watch other shooters

- get in a squad with shooters who are better than you, they will push you and give you good advice on how to become faster

- reload my loads just creep over power factor and it does make a difference.

[want2race]

I made my own vest. No weights, it's just stiff material. I'm not into round dumping, but in the same token poking out and shooting one, slide lock reload, shoot one is just plain silly. I always try to find a spot to RWR if I can.

If you have a steel target that activates a paper target (i.e. a swinger). Shoot paper target before it moves if possible. As long as you call the shot on steel, you have "activated" the paper, therefor you can shoot it even if it isn't moving. As long as the stage briefing doesn't say otherwise.

[hankfan79]

They have HOA in IDPA?? <--That's a joke.

It's just plain and simple. If it is within the rules, I am going to do it. It's like that in every sport.

If you have a steel target that activates a paper target (i.e. a swinger). Shoot paper target before it moves if possible. As long as you call the shot on steel, you have "activated" the paper, therefor you can shoot it even if it isn't moving. As long as the stage briefing doesn't say otherwise.

Exactly! That is gaming at it's best. I do the same thing. Key words in that quote are "As longs as the stage briefing doesn't say otherwise".

A small penalty but still makes you feel like an ass for doing something wrong.

Think that's bad? Wait until you get DQ'd. Then you feel like an ass the size of Texas.

Edited April 26, 2011 by hankfan79

[jar]

In my opinion you really can't ever gig anybody for round dumping. I have a good index and if my contacts fall out I can't see anything but I could probably index on targets and get lucky but might want some extra incentive. Is that a crazy example, yes, but until we can read minds its one of those rules that is just to hard to call. The cheating part is on the shooter.

You can if you hear them telling their buddies about their round dumping plan during the walkthrough. I've warned guys a few times that 'while I normally wouldn't give a penalty for round dumping because it's hard to determine intent, since you told me you plan to do it, I'll ding you for it if you do'. No one has done it after that warning yet.

I'm with you 100% on the other comment. If people spent half the time they spent trying to skirt the rules on shooting faster and more accurately, it would have a far better effect on their match results. Even if you get away with it, you know you cheated. Some people care more about this than others.

[Forrest Halley]

Some things i have picked up on:

- speed is more important that shot placement to a certain point. if you drop a few -1's every once in a while its ok, but if your hitting all zeros your going to slow.

This is why I love three shots per target stages. People get so caught up with going speed speed speed that they forget they are tacking on a half second everytime they pull the trigger doing the down one shuffle. You might as well shoot .6 splits and shoot clean at that rate.

In my opinion you really can't ever gig anybody for round dumping.

You can if you hear them telling their buddies about their round dumping plan during the walkthrough.

If people spent half the time they spent trying to skirt the rules on shooting faster and more accurately, it would have a far better effect on their match results.

So very true. I forgot how daft some people are as to boast about their illegal stage plans aloud. This happens a lot with very poor shooters...the guy in the urban camo that takes an hour to complete the COF and didn't get the memo about electronic muffs.

I think some folks just need to figure out ways to shoot less rounds. Try shooting 18 times if it says 18 rds min for a change. You will learn the accuracy thing in short order.

[steel1212]

In my opinion you really can't ever gig anybody for round dumping. I have a good index and if my contacts fall out I can't see anything but I could probably index on targets and get lucky but might want some extra incentive. Is that a crazy example, yes, but until we can read minds its one of those rules that is just to hard to call. The cheating part is on the shooter.

You can if you hear them telling their buddies about their round dumping plan during the walkthrough. I've warned guys a few times that 'while I normally wouldn't give a penalty for round dumping because it's hard to determine intent, since you told me you plan to do it, I'll ding you for it if you do'. No one has done it after that warning yet.

I'm with you 100% on the other comment. If people spent half the time they spent trying to skirt the rules on shooting faster and more accurately, it would have a far better effect on their match results. Even if you get away with it, you know you cheated. Some people care more about this than others.

Well...yeah if they sit there and say I'm going to dump rounds on this target then do, I might be inclined to let them do it then give them a procedural for doing so.

[Don Springer]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA, so I don't get the thinking that some folks use to justify dumping round to themselves. Personally, winning outside the rules of the game, would seem a pointless victory.

IDPA is very subjective and if you think breaking the rules (regardless if you can) to "beat the suckas" who play within the rules of the game you are paying to play is the way you need to roll, well that is up to you.

When I shoot I want to show shooters who don't shoot the other game, that you don't need to break the rules to win, you just have to shoot and move accurately and faster than everyone else.

Well said. I hate designing stages when I know certain people are going to be around. I spend more time trying to find the angles the "gamers" are gonna try and exploit than I do making a fun and challenging COF.

Then you have all the arguments that stem from the "gamers" superior intellect and understanding of the rules as they have read them. I'm here to shoot not argue with you over what two to the body and one to the head means or wether or not this area is in fact cover. Not only are the arguments distracting and time consuming but then people start to get confused as to what the rules REALLY state.

The way I see it is if you're not into the spirit of the game then maybe you should just go shoot another game. BTW, don't take that as a knock on USPSA. I'm dying to try USPSA as the videos I've seen look like a blast! Just don't have a USPSA club to play with yet.

[shootaglock89]

I've never had to dump a round in IDPA to win HOA,

What is HOA?