Tatical Timmys

[corabora]

Recently started IDPA, & have to deal with a shooter best described as a "tactical timmy" in a different thread.

He's basically a total rule nazi. Even considering 90% of attendents are local guys who in all probabilty will never travel outside of the area to attend a match or even join IDPA officially, He's constantly harping about how such and such doesn't meet the rules, this is for a non sanctioned match.( realistically a bunch of guys practicing something other than a static shooting stance).

some of the new guys including myself show up early drag all the gear out & let the more experience set up the stages.

Last time 2 new showed up, the stages were set up to accomodate them & their gear, as each shooter only had 2 six rounds mags for total of 12 plus one in the pipe for each stage, He whined that they needed more stuff(for their 1st day)so the stages could involve more shooting.

My breaking point was when no one could think of the next stage, so I said how a bout this, asked for input every except TT said cool.

As I was getting ready He came up and said that "I need to GET a Clue and Join IDPA" to set up the stage according to the rule book.

I pretty much decided at that point, for a recreation hobby I didn't need to participate anymore.

Am I over reacting?

[gringop]

He's basically a total rule nazi. Even considering 90% of attendents are local guys who in all probabilty will never travel outside of the area to attend a match or even join IDPA officially, He's constantly harping about how such and such doesn't meet the rules, this is for a non sanctioned match.( realistically a bunch of guys practicing something other than a static shooting stance).

I pretty much decided at that point, for a recreation hobby I didn't need to participate anymore.

Am I over reacting?

Are you guys charging a fee for this match? If it's advertised as an IDPA match and I were to go shoot it and pay a fee and I find out that it's just a bunch of guys that don't know the rules and make up stages on the spot then I would be pissed and complain loud and long. It doesn't matter if it's a sanctioned match or not, if you call it IDPA, then it needs to follow the IDPA rules.

It sounds like you are just practicing. If so don't call it IDPA. Call it Slapdash Happy Fun Match. Then you can ignore the rules and Tactical Timmy can't complain.

Gringop

[tralagar]

Not as far as I am concerned. I have a fulltime job where I am forced to deal with idiots, I am not going to subject myself to them any more than I have to for my leisure time.

[Aglifter]

I'm a bit confused. +1 on if you are advertising an IDPA match, it needs to meet rule standards, etc.

But, if you're practicing, and having fun, great.

However, at a club match, there is usually a fair amount of leeway given to permit new shooters to use what they have, provided they can do so safely - never heard of altering a stage for them, though...

[AlamoShooter]

I have a new device that should be available soon, in field trails with test in over two states it is helping me.

Its a "GivAsh*t Meter" just set it in the morning before you arrive at the event.

One small thing that you could say to your self or out loud would be " Whats going to happen? you report me to Headquarters"

My biggest flaw at many events over the years is caring too much

Stick with it

[Chills1994]

hey, man, I don't know what to tell you.

there is always gonna be at least one guy like that at every club or match. be glad you don't have a clique of 5 guys like that.

as far as stage design goes, "the buck stops here!" with the match director.

he is the final authority when it comes to how the club or match is run.

in my opinion, a well run club, should have a match director who has the stage diagrams and the written stage briefings ready to go when it comes time to set up the stages. those are like blueprints for each stage.

that way at least on paper the stage has been QC'ed before stuff gets dragged out to set it up.

and yes, IDPA does have rules on how stages should be set up say like how many non threat targets there are and how far targets can be for weak hand only shooting.

and yes, technically, IDPA even has a rule that for you to continue shooting bona fide local IDPA matches you are supposed to join after your first match. yeah, seriously.

the rulebook can be found at the IDPA.com website, so you don't even have to join first to get a real hard copy version of your own. download it as a .pdf and educate yourself and you'll begin to understand where that "tactical timmy" is coming from.

this is just me personally but if that guy has a problem with how the stages are being set up or people not joining IDPA, then he should address it on the down low with the match director. then let the MD handle it....diplomatically without a smart alleckey tone.

most of the times it isn't what is said but the tone in which it is said that rubs people the wrong way.

[corabora]

well yes it is advertised as IDPA, As far as other people traveling to participate we're in the middle of nowhere large city is almost 2 hours away, so it's mainly county residents 90% probably don't even know there's a range here much less any type of organized shooting events.

My main concern

1. driving away interest particpants, Heck TT thinks that if a stage might need a number of round to complete say xyz but new shooter only has xy then he should be not even be allowed to particpate because he doesn't have the right gear.

Sheez Can't the guy just shoot the freaking stage & have fun.

Kinda hard to keep new members with that attitude.

2. We show up early, heck even left work early to set up then get ragged on about a stage when by TT when he offered no input while standing right there.

3. I invite any one I meet at the range to attend of maybe 20 plus 1st timers in the last couple of months all have quit attending mainly due to the fact TT takes the FUN out it by constantly harping about rules.

4. One of the few times I have traveled elswhere, 2 hours (left at 5am) to participate in a different shooting event, He was there & after shooting one particular long stage. Between work, the freaking drive various other reasons I was incredibly tired. He came up & told me I HAD to shoot a classifier THEN I HAD to Shoot this that stage.

My response, I packed up my gear and left drove 2 hours back home wasn't even noon.

Edited May 8, 2011 by corabora

[Chills1994]

my advice, again is to talk with the MD to try to reign that guy in. if the club is losing money because of that guy's bull in a china shop personality, that should get the MD's attention.

if that doesn't work...or if he is the MD...God forbid...

well...my experience has been with guys like that is to get your own verbal barbs or jabs in...and they will typically throttle back on the 'tude...especially if you do it in front of enough people that it embarasses them.

if he is harping on a stage layout, then next time ask to see the stage diagram.

if he gives you a deer caught in the headlights type look then all you gotta say is "you do have a stage diagram and written stage briefing for this stage, don't you? ....well, let me see it!" and if you really wanted to be a jerk about it when he starts hemming and hawing and stuttering is say, "I thought you wanted to run a by the IDPA rulebook match here...where's the stage diagram?"

as far as the newbs with their UNgamey equipment goes, that happens. you just gotta be flexible. ideally, newbs would have contacted somebody in the know ahead of time and gotten an idea of what to bring. we shooters are typically a friendly bunch and we will bend over backwards to get new guys hooked on this addiction. if that means loaning out a mag or mags, a holster, or heck even the whole gun and rig...that's what usually happens.

at some point if you want to still continue with IDPA, you should really get yourself to a Safety Officer class and to some major matches.

[John Tuley]

I'm going to echo the sentiment that if you're calling it IDPA, run it by IDPA rules; if you don't want their rules, don't use their name.

One time I showed up to a club's "USPSA" match. No safety area, no MD. Five stages that were 36-40 rounds, and a legit classifier. Rules about number of shots per position ignored (which I realize are just "suggestions" for club-level matches anyway). Safety procedures that I'd come to expect from other clubs weren't in place. Long story short: I didn't get the experience I was expecting (or was prepared for), left early and didn't go back. If I had known that it was a USPSA-like match, with extra-long stages and some other rules ignored, would I have just brought more ammo and enjoyed myself? Sure. But I was expecting a USPSA match, since that's what I had been told was being put on. Not getting that soured my day with that club.

If you want to practice something other than the "usual" range experience, please call it a "practical" match, "tactical," "defensive," whatever -- just not the name of an established game with its own rulebook. I've been to matches at other clubs that just called their event "combat league," and knew to come, shoot their way, have fun, and most importantly not have expectations about rules based on other games I play.

Please, for those of us who have expectations about things labeled "IDPA," "USPSA," "IPSC," etc, use the name of the game only if you're going to play by that game's rules. By doing what you're doing, you're confusing people who come expecting that game, and you're also doing a disservice to your own members if they ever go to a sanctioned IDPA/USPSA/etc match, where they will have to follow the organization's rules and may be confused about the differences.

That said, it sounds like you're putting on events that are what your members want. Don't stop doing that; it's great to have people come out and shoot. If the IDPA rules would just get in the way, don't use them. Just rename your match to avoid confusion. That should also serve to shut up Timmy, since the IDPA label that he's clinging to will be gone.

-- John.

PS: I'm also all for helping out the new guys whenever possible, as long as they understand that an exception to the rules is being made for them and it can't keep happening indefinitely. Get 'em hooked and playing safely, then get 'em playing by "big boy rules."

Edited May 8, 2011 by John Tuley

[corabora]

That said, it sounds like you're putting on events that are what your members want. Don't stop doing that; it's great to have people come out and shoot. If the IDPA rules would just get in the way, don't use them. Just rename your match to avoid confusion. That should also serve to shut up Timmy, since the IDPA label that he's clinging to will be gone.

Thanks this is great advice, I don't organize the IDPA events just I attend and help out. range club allows other organized events & I'm friends with a local instructor who I've taken advanced classes with, He's expressed interest in doing something like that to avoid any confusion so hopefully we can put something together on a monthy or bi monthly basis.

[remoandiris]

I like the TTs who say "There are some clubs where you could be DQd for that". I say "Glad this isn't one of those clubs!"

I find it hard to believe the MD doesn't know how this guy behaves. If he isn't willing to deal with TT, you have to decide if you will deal with him at the match, avoid him at the match, or stop going to the match.

If I were you and there was another squad I could shoot on, that is how I'd avoid him. You still put in the work to setup the match, but you don't have to deal with his bullshit.

[Chills1994]

remoandiris wrote:

I like the TTs who say "There are some clubs where you could be DQd for that".

hence my suggestion to bone up on the IDPA rulebook and for him to take the SO class.

you don't necessarily have to know the rulebook backwards and forwards, but just enough to say with confidence, "Hmmn...okay, show me in the rulebook where it states that?"

[colt]

I'm going to echo the sentiment that if you're calling it IDPA, run it by IDPA rules; if you don't want their rules, don't use their name

+1

I don't shot IDPA anymore but if was going to one thats called IDPA I would be pi$$ if the rules were different.

Just name it something else and have fun and have one guy that M.D. and he's the last word.

Brent

[sirveyr]

Am I missing something?

First you claim that he is a rule Nazi and he is trying to enforce the rules of IDPA. Isn't that a good thing? Then you call him a Tactical Timmy. I don't think they are the same. The Tactical Timmy's that I've met typically try to apply "real world tactics" to the IDPA rules. An example would be assessing a PE for sticking your firearm through a port, because a bad guy could grab it, or claiming that you must engage targets in a certain order because they have weapons painted on them.

Obviously, I wasn't there and I am only reading half of the story, so maybe I a misunderstand what went down. There will always be "one of those guys" at every club you go to. Don't let one SO ruin IDPA for you.

[Jaxshooter]

I would not adjust the stages for new shooters that did not have the propper equiptment. Let them shoot it the best they can with what they have or pick up thier discarded magazine and reload it for them so they can continue the stage. The guy does need to be throttled back so he does not run shooters off. That is better left to the match director if there is one.

By all means play by the rules if it is an IDPA match or call it something else.

[remoandiris]

Am I missing something?

First you claim that he is a rule Nazi and he is trying to enforce the rules of IDPA. Isn't that a good thing? Then you call him a Tactical Timmy. I don't think they are the same. The Tactical Timmy's that I've met typically try to apply "real world tactics" to the IDPA rules. An example would be assessing a PE for sticking your firearm through a port, because a bad guy could grab it, or claiming that you must engage targets in a certain order because they have weapons painted on them.

Obviously, I wasn't there and I am only reading half of the story, so maybe I a misunderstand what went down. There will always be "one of those guys" at every club you go to. Don't let one SO ruin IDPA for you.

What I gleaned from the OP is this TT belittles new shooters who don't have the equipment "he" thinks they need, likely because they don't know what they need. So instead of educating and informing, he tells them to get a clue, buy more stuff and join IDPA . Plus, he stands around and just tells people they're "doing it wrong", yet doesn't provide constructive feedback on stage design. And, he doesn't show up to setup stages.

[badchad]

He's basically a total rule nazi.

What rules do you all think it's ok to break?

[corabora]

What I gleaned from the OP is this TT belittles new shooters who don't have the equipment "he" thinks they need, likely because they don't know what they need. So instead of educating and informing, he tells them to get a clue, buy more stuff and join IDPA . Plus, he stands around and just tells people they're "doing it wrong", yet doesn't provide constructive feedback on stage design. And, he doesn't show up to setup stages.

That what i was trying to convey. & I find it incredible rude when I take time off from my job, without pay to show up early , drag equipment materials out then be talked down to in a condensending manner. My solution I just not willing to participate in a GAME to be "belittled" because I don't have a clue. Apparently so do the approximately 20 plus people that I invited to participate over the past months. They have pretty much lost interest or simply do their own thing at the range.

[ima45dv8]

One time I showed up to a club's "USPSA" match. No safety area, no MD. Five stages that were 36-40 rounds, and a legit classifier. Rules about number of shots per position ignored (which I realize are just "suggestions" for club-level matches anyway).

Actually, they're not just suggestions.

For USPSA matches, the maximum is 8 rounds required from any shooting position. Additional shots may be offered at a given shooting position if those targets are also offered from another location ("Option" shots).

What IS optional at Level I and II matches is the total round count per stage. They cannot excced 32 rounds for Level III and above matches, but can at Level I and II matches.

[ima45dv8]

Recently started IDPA, & have to deal with a shooter best described as a "tactical timmy" in a different thread.

well yes it is advertised as IDPA,

Thanks this is great advice, I don't organize the IDPA events....

That what i was trying to convey. & I find it incredible rude when I take time off from my job, without pay to show up early , drag equipment materials out then be talked down to in a condensending manner. My solution I just not willing to participate in a GAME to be "belittled" because I don't have a clue. Apparently so do the approximately 20 plus people that I invited to participate over the past months. They have pretty much lost interest or simply do their own thing at the range.

Corabora,

Welcome to The forums. For competition shooting (including IDPA matches) there's much to learned here. I hope you find this place useful.

Please forgive me if I misread the above, but I get the idea you're new to IDPA and this TT guy isn't. He may be a crotchety old fart (or maybe not -- we're innocent bystanders and don't really know either of you), but he tries to give the impression he has more experience (which does not necessarily equate to rules knowledge). If you're going to cross swords with him you have to do it from a position of knowledge.

If I were in your shoes I'd start reading the IDPA rulebook thoroughly and often...like every time I went to the bathroom (I call it the library). Take a copy with you to matches. Don't use it to beat people over the head, but use it to educate.

Don't underestimate your local good ol' boy shooters' abilities to adapt to a firm rule set. If they're smart enough to turn loose with a loaded firearm, they can learn the honest to gosh IDPA rules. They don't have to be spoon fed a dumbed-down local version.

You can do this. And you might find that Old TT a willing participant.

Good luck with it...

[toddje]

Just my 2 cents: Typically it's not the suggestion, but the delivery. In other words, Tactical Timmy here has an communication and/or attitude problem. He's technically correct, but, "Folks don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." I know, it's corny Zig Ziglar sales-speak, but it's 100% true.

You're right - he's the kind of guy who runs off new shooters and it sounds like he has a problem communicating with respect.

He's right - stages should meet the rules.

HOWEVER - At a local match, if it's "close" sometimes that's good enough. As an example, we shoot bowling pins during some of our "IDPA" local matches and it drives some purists nuts, but most folks just plain love it. Is it "pure" IDPA? No. On the other hand, and this goes without saying: Safety-related rules are non-negotiable.

Please don't let the occasional jerk run you off from the sport. They're in EVERY group of people who gather for any reason - including work and church...

[Poppa Bear]

If I were in your shoes I'd start reading the IDPA rulebook thoroughly and often...like every time I went to the bathroom (I call it the library). Take a copy with you to matches. Don't use it to beat people over the head, but use it to educate.

Don't underestimate your local good ol' boy shooters' abilities to adapt to a firm rule set. If they're smart enough to turn loose with a loaded firearm, they can learn the honest to gosh IDPA rules. They don't have to be spoon fed a dumbed-down local version.

You can do this. And you might find that Old TT a willing participant.

Good luck with it...

This is good advise, heed it.

The rule book is your friend because the better you understand it the better you can make the stages. Nothing will shut up a Tactical Timmy worse than shooting according to the rules AND ensuring HE knows that YOU know the rules too. If you do not have all the right equipment to make the stage work 100% according to the rules you can always write into the stage briefing that the intent is XXX but not having YYY you have to imagine it is there. This acknowledges that you know the rules even if you have to modify the stage to fit your equipment.

Also are you sure that TT knows the rules? By you and others learning the rules, you can argue back that it is within the rules and please point out where you are wrong. He may decide to take a hike himself if he does not have a group he can lord his superior knowledge over, or he might decide to join in and help set up the stages correctly. It is possible he has done it all before but got burnt out and now wants others to take the lead on all the work.

[kcobean]

From being an officer of a different kind of club, I can tell you that "Tactical Timmy" exists in every hobby. Don't let him ruin your enjoyment of something that you're doing primarily for you, and secondarily for others.

You really have three options:

1. Blow him out of the water so that he doesn't come back (i.e. make it very clear that he can find a lake and jump in, he's a guest and a rude one at that).

2. Get your stuff together if you're going to bill your match as one sanctioned by and adherent to a governing body that people want to be affiliated with.

3. Invite him to stay and eat what is put in front of him with the understanding that it's not a rules-governed event and liberties will be taken. Now that you've made full disclosure, he'll choose to stay and shoot or go somewhere else.

"Volunteerism" is a dying philosophy and our sport NEEDS people who continue to give of their own time for the survival and advancement of the sport. Guys like TT have no clue, no gratitude and you can't let him ruin a good thing for you or anyone else. With that said, you need to sell what you advertise and advertise what you sell, if you know what I mean.

I thank you for being willing to put in effort for something that others get to enjoy.

[fastmtnbiker33w]

What gun uses a 6 round mag? Wouldn't that be a BUG and used for BUG matches?

Next time maybe encourage the newbies to borrow a more appropriate gun. I'm always willing to lend mine and even bring extra ammo and my spare holster to every match. The only thing someone would have to do is stash the mags in their pockets....which seems very "concealed carry" to me.

[2MoreChains]

How about inviting Timmy to design a stage at your next match? If nothing else, it'll save you the hassle of dreaming up one stage...