Android-based scoring.

[rhgunguy]

I have a friend who is gifted with computers who is going to try and build a scoring app for USPSA. We are going to get together this weekend so I can show him ezWin.

My question for you all is what features would you like to see incorporated?

[stringcheese]

Big screen buttons. Black writing on white background. Big lettering.

If you could make it to have like 3 windows that we can finger slide between pages to keep the fonts big. Maybe first page shooter list, scoring on page 2 for shooter pickes on page 1, penalitis and final on page 3 or something.

Nevermind...just make it work and easy to read

[euxx]

When scoring stage, fill in all targets with As and subtract from As when tapping on Bs, Cs, Ds and Ms. Penalties per target (max 2) and stage procedurals are separate entry.

[rhgunguy]

Good stuff! Keep it coming! Also keep in mind I have never played with palm scoring so we are starting with a clean sheet of paper.

[R-Bros_JLR]

Any development on this?

[Joe4d]

how about make it on an 8X11 flat white colored surface, then you use this stylus stick think to drag across it that makes a permanent mark,

Yeh seriously though, After RO ing a major match with the palm system I say no way, I dont see how it saves anytime, constant headache, constant waiting, slowed the stages down, still have to transfer scores to paper, really a pain. I imagine match staff likes them because it just moves the data entry from a stats shed to the stages for the RO who is trying to oversea a hundred other things to worry with.

The best system I have seen, is the paper scoresheet with a carbon copy, scored, ro signs shooter sign, white copy in the box, yellow copy to the shooters, simple and sweet. Better for the shooters,better for the RO's. only bad for the stats person.

[euxx]

If I am not mistaken, Eastern Lakes Sectional and Area 7 matches used the Palm scoring last year and from what I recall there was no major issues.

They used special scoresheets, so you only had to transfer totals added up by Palm to paper.

[Chris Keen]

As a shooter, I hate seeing just the "totals only" on my copy of the stage.

As a stats guy, I've done 3 state level matches, and lots of local matches, and I have no problem with the paper copies. I just recently did a 9 stage state match, with 250 shooters. That adds up to approx. 2,250 score sheets I punched in, and only had a handful of them that I typed the wrong data entry in. Mistakes were quickly caught by my backup stats person, and problem averted. Scores were posted about 30 minutes after last shots fired, and most of that time was the slow printer I was using. (Note to self: buy a laser printer!)

[Jim Norman]

Electronic Scoring for USPSA and Multi-GUn

The system MUST allow for:

Direct import from a webbased sign-up form.

Printing of mailing labels for the match, the entire DB, different subsets of the main database and individuals.

Printing a winners report with a variable criteria, ie minimum in division, minimum in class, categories

Obviously all of the scoring fields, plus DQs (Stage Score does not currently support DQ.)

Support a viable printer that can print quickly two copies of the scores AT THE STAGE, on for records an done for the competitor

Support a large screen display showing the time (Actually this is more of a want than a must, but for LARGE matches with spectators, it would be really nice)

Support USPSA HF Scoring, and Time+ scoring, Multi-Gun and 3-gun tournaments

While we're at it, Make it work for Steel Challenge and maybe even IDPA.

It needs to be built on a platform that will run ALL DAY on a charge or have an available battery pack

It needs to work in the sun and the rain

The club will buy the program and put it on any number of devices. Competitors can get the scores beamed to their device at no charge, all they need to see is their scores by stage, some sort of report function. First time they use the system, they get a cookie that has the required info, after that when ever they register at that club, their info is automatic and at any stage they get their scores beamed to their device seamlessly.

Support must be available and the system need NOT interface to EzWin, all it needs to do is generate the proper output files. All data entry should be on the computer that acts as the master and be beamed out to the devices. No programing function on the devices.

That about covers it.

[wgnoyes]

Support must be available and the system need NOT interface to EzWin,<snip>

Uh, yes, the system DOES TOO have to interface to ezwinscore. Read 9.11.1: "PDA's or handheld computers may be used for the collection of scoring data for transfer to ezws, provided the program and procedure has been approved by the USPSA President." Palms (pss-score or stagescore), iPhones, Androids or whatever else you can hold in your hand can COLLECT the data, but the data has to be imported into ezws, which will be used to actually CALCULATE and print (electronic or paper) the results.

[Jim Norman]

Bill,

Sorry to disagree, but a system that generates the required format should be acceptable to HQ. EzWinScore is an Albatross to development of a modern scoring system. Is it the result we are looking for? or is it the maintenance of a cumbersome manual system?

[wgnoyes]

The rules are the rules. Read it again. We know to what precision ezws calculates scores. We don't know what happens in palm or stagescore. We have to know with certainty that the scores are calculated correctly. I don't care what is used to collect the data, so long as the data makes it into ezws for calculation so that we know the finals are reliable. You still get to run your little palms or whatnot; why do you care what processes the final results?

[Joe4d]

seems pretty lame to me, I have to put the data into a computer, then print out two papers, then transfer that data , to ez win, then write a summary on a sheet. We are not using paid professional RO's and scorers, We shoot and RO all year with paper, learn the tricks of the trade, develope a RO system then go to a Major match, where we want everything to be perfect for the shooters and they hand the doodad to some near heat exhausted RO's that just makes the job harder. I am all for technology that helps us , but this palm pilot garbage is simply technology for the sake of technology, The most simple, reliable, cheap, user friendly interface for scoring stages, Is a piece of paper with a carbon copy, let a couple people in an air conditioned stats shack that arnt responsible for answering questions, scoring disputes, safety infractions, etc etc etc.

I generally support my area and section ROing at least one day of majors whether I shoot or not. I wont be doing palms again.

[sdm74]

The palm is simple..

[98sr20ve]

The palm is simple..

Agreed. We don't need complicated.

[Chills1994]

This thread reminds me about a story about the space programs. American Engineers were all perplexed about how to get a ball point pen to write in space with it's zero gravity environment. Supposedly, we spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get a pen design to work in space.

The Soviets? Meh?! Not so much.

They just used pencils.

[raz-0]

This thread reminds me about a story about the space programs. American Engineers were all perplexed about how to get a ball point pen to write in space with it's zero gravity environment. Supposedly, we spent thousands and thousands of dollars to get a pen design to work in space.

The Soviets? Meh?! Not so much.

They just used pencils.

Actually we spent zero dollars developing a pen. A businessman invented it on his own because he wanted his product to be part of the space program. He knew it would be selling point even 50 years later. As for palm, it's dead as a platform. Hp bought the corpse, will build there webOS tablet which will flop, then palm will just be a handful of ip and patents. Ez win score still sucks, and I'm not seeing how one can determine what produced the text file that gets uploaded for classifieds. If the math is that trick, open source some libraries. The people who have to use it each month will eventually create competition. Ez can't really withstand that.

Edited July 10, 2011 by raz-0

[Jim Norman]

With a properly set up system, registration would occur direct from the web, we'd input the stages and then score the match, all the rest would occur with a single click. Generate all the reports and all the lists we need. IF we have a correction or a change, we could the go back and make what ever correction was needed and hit the button again, every think would update.

Now to post we have to create a minimum of 14 files each requiring multiple mouse moves and clicks. Don't even get me started on the pain in ass that registering shooters is.

The output file is a txt file to HQ, all we need is to have the math figured to the same standard. Why EzWin has to be involved is only to keep EzWin in existence. Palm work, but they could be improved upon, both the hardware and the fact that they are dependent upon EZ.

[wgnoyes]

Rule 9.11.1.

It's a Quality Assurance issue. We know how ezws calculates scores because we (USPSA wrote it); do we know for certain that your palm calculates THE EXACT SAME WAY? To the SAME LEVEL OF PRECISION? Do we? Have we compared them side by side, detail line by detail line? You don't have to if you take calculation responsibilities away from the palm and reserve that for the central system.

Just collect the data on your palms or whatever, import it to a central location (you HAVE to have that), and let the central location calculate and print the results. That way, I don't care if you're using palms or iphones or androids or whatnot. I don't have to care. That opens up your options. Bring me your devices, or bring me your scoresheets; I'll take both. That's called flexibility. IBM had an acronym called RAS related to their systems. Reliability. Availability. Serviceability. That means it always works. That means its always available to work. And that means if it breaks, it's easy for fix the outage for one data path (stage 7's palm just suddenly wigged out for no apparent reason) while other data paths (stage 7 is sending me paper scoresheets now) remain open.

To upload results, you need ONE file, not 14. (Well okay, 2, one for display, and one for classification reporting.) If you want to produce combined results to display on your own website or email out, then you need two more. BFD.

I don't bother counting mouse clicks as I don't have a ingrained hatred for mice and trackpads. I DO, however, have a similar loathing for tiny styluses scratching across little bitty scratched up screens that leave my hand cramped after a long session of use.

As to registration, is this the same "properly set up system [of] registration...from the web" that opens up the possibility of walk-in competitors not getting registered in ANY division and we have to chase them down after the fact to find out what division they shot and if we can't find them, THEY (customers) get rogered and shoved into Open minor because WE (service providers) wanted to get away from paper and pencil?

Edited July 10, 2011 by wgnoyes

[Chills1994]

In my opinion, ...

Let me say that one more time ...

In my opinion, there wouldn't be a need for ezwinscore if USPSA didn't go by or with stage points scoring and doling out percentages. Just go with cumulative or total hit factor.

If we went that route, then I would think just about any ol' spreadsheet program could handle that.

I think ...

A'yup, I know we've already been down that road with me and my version of hit factor scoring. Sooo.... Save your keystrokes and bandwidth. I already know what the typical anti-HF scoring arguments or counterpoints are going to be.

http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=Story&submit-result-SEARCHD=Search

It's a mobile link, but the second definition for "story" = fictionalized tale.... In reference to my earlier post about the cosmonauts using pencils .

Paper and pencil scoring ain't broke.

Let's not fix it til we get something that is.

[sdm74]

Yes the palm is outdated, that's why its easy for clubs to buy them without taking a big hit in the wallet.

[wgnoyes]

The other stuff is getting cheaper. And honestly, more and more of us have these anyway.

[Jim Norman]

Walk-on shooters whether they are the entire match done on paper or a few add-ons done after the data has been loaded have the possibility of being added with missing division, power factor, class or any other info that we need. Stats has to chase this down either way. We do it. We post the scores first and have the shooters contact us, but we also try to get the answers at registration.

the system I propose like any other system would allow for paper back-up and entry. Write the scores down and enter them later, no problem.

The biggest issue I have with Ez the pain in the arse registration and updating of classifications and divisions. Think entering a new shooter. You enter his name address and all, but the division and class require you to go to another window. Why? you enter the info on the main registration page, the name stays, the address stays, the USPSA number stays, the division and class don't Why? Search for the shooter to enter him, it is all mousing, why not auto fill?

[wgnoyes]

If you're entering a new shooter you've never had in masternames.db...., any desired auto-fillin isn't going to help you. I just don't see the problem. You enter in his particulars, uspsa# and selected division and claimed class. And then you run a classification update against the match and that verifies the classification for all your new guy. You then run sometime later a classification update against maternames.db, and it updates in there the new guys you've entered for the match, because the system has added your new guys to masternames when you added them to the match.

The only way an auto-fillin feature is ever going to be as helpful as you think it would be is if we were all issued full membership databases for our masternames every month, and I can guess with a whole lot of confidence THAT isn't going to happen.

It's just NOT as inconvenient as you're making it out to be. it just isn't!

And if you're missing divisions for a few shooters on a regular basis, I'm sorry to sound harsh, but there's something bad wrong with your procedures. There just isn't any excuse for that to ever happen. It's truly a quality of service issue.

Edited July 11, 2011 by wgnoyes

[Jim Norman]

Bill we will continue to disagree. The auto fill would work just fine, If it fails to find the shooter due to his not being in the data base you just keep typing and now he is entered. As to the missing divisions, you fill in all the info, you choose his division from the drop down list and enter him. Do a classification update for the match and the master and next time you look him up you do it all over again. There is a place that you can enter the division(s) a particular person shoots, why doesn't this happen all on one scree like it did early on? It used to be that the next time you looked up the shooter, his division was there with his class. How about this, we load the shooter names and numbers and classes each time we do an update, WHY CAN"T THIS BE LOADED INTO THE MASTERNAMES????? OK, I don't have your address and I don't have your phone or email, but your NAME, USPSA Number and CLassified Divisions SHOULD BE THERE!