Single Stack + table starts

[Thomas H]

I'd have to re-read our current USPSA rules again, but I don't see where a mag in the hand would be the same as a mag in storage. And, that is how I would likely rule on it if I were sitting on an arb committee.

To me, there is a distinction there. The distinction being that the mag is stored if you put it on a belt, stick it to a magnet, place in it a pocket...etc.

I completly agree. If it is in my hand, I'm using it.

Agreed. Apparently, though, that isn't how DNROI sees it....and that is what worries me. I just don't see hands as "equipment". Once I've grabbed it, it isn't in storage anymore. I may hold on to it, carry it, shoot while holding it---but it still isn't the same as on my belt/in my pocket.

One problem here is that "storage" isn't how 5.2.4 is stated. It is stated as "carried"...which is where I think the problem lies, as we do indeed carry magazines in our hands.

5.2.4

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

I still think that once it is in my hand, we have a different situation.

(And yes, discussing it here doesn't solve the problem, and yes, I'm asking my Area director about this. I hope other people are also.)

I note that I don't think the IPSC version of the rules solves the problem. Again---on a regular stage (not a table start), if I pull a magazine and happen to do something else while the mag is in my hand, I don't want to be kicked to Open just because I wasn't holding my hand behind my hipbone.

[badchad]

I completly agree. If it is in my hand, I'm using it.

I think we should have a ruling similar to IPSC. The "using it" argument comes down to semantics. For example if I'm carrying a hammer to a job site, I'm not exactly using it, like if I were hammering a nail.

I think the IPSC ruling is fairly new cause here is where the IPSC global village went through basically the the same discussion were having now:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3850&st=0&p=38217&hl=pocket&fromsearch=1entry38217

[beltjones]

So .. this is idiotic. It is almost like USPSA wants people to throw their hands up in the air and shoot something that is not called USPSA.

Can of worms my ass, this is the crude oil carrier of worms. It basically says I can't reload on the move, I can't take a strong hand only shot as I grab my reload mag, etc.

I am as well going to contact my area director and formally request the start of proceedings to replace DNROI with our thanks for his service over the years.

+1.

There are a handful of rulings lately that absolutely defy common sense, and that it seems most people do not support. Between this, the paint-in-the-magwell ruling, and a few others, I too plan to email my area director. It's really the only thing we can do.

Something I've been seeing people doing more and more lately is reloading coming into a position when moving toward the weak hand rather than hitting the reload as they exit the previous position. Basically they finish out of a position, start moving toward the next position as they dump the spent mag and grab a fresh one, and stick the reload as they settle into the new position. This common technique is now totally illegal for Single Stack and Production. It just doesn't make sense.

Part of what brings people to USPSA is the freedom we have in how we execute our stage plans. However, when you start creating arbitrary course execution rules on already rules-heavy (in terms of equipment) divisions you make it extremely confusing for new shooters (not to mention long-time shooters, RO's, etc). Considering the push to get new members, it would be to all of our advantage of the BOD could get NROI more in line with the spirit of what Production and Single Stack are intended to be (whatever that is...).

[2alpha]

I'd rather see stages won or lost on shooting and stage strategy than whether you can stuff mags in your pouches quicker or can come up with the trickest mag pouch.

[Skydiver]

I agree, but some of the stage strategy involved is determining how much time to spend stuffing a mag pouch, or simply carrying in the mag in your hand (assuming it's still legal to do so for your appropriate division).

[beltjones]

I agree, but some of the stage strategy involved is determining how much time to spend stuffing a mag pouch, or simply carrying in the mag in your hand (assuming it's still legal to do so for your appropriate division).

If someone can carry 8 mags in their weak hand Johnny Bench style and can shoot the whole stage strong-hand-only I say more power to them. It should at least be an option.

[JAFO]

lets take a regular loaded and holsterd start. You are saying at after the start signal that I cannot take my magazines, throw 'em all over the place and reload from where they lay even though at the start signal all magazines started within all division requirements of placement and storage devices. So it's not freestyle.

None of this should have an effect on tossing mags on the ground or laying them next to you when going prone via 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Unless someone wants to start another discussion on the definition of "dropped or discarded".

I really hope we're making Mt. Everest out of a molehill and that the IPSC rule can be applied. If we're looking at having to watch hand/hipbone placement, I don't see how you can effectively RO this. Most of the time shooters have their weak side forward a bit, placing the point of their hipbone in front of them while shooting. Neither the RO nor the scorekeeper are going to have a real good view. When I RO, I'm usually behind and a little to the right of a right-handed shooter so I can see the gun. That puts me on the opposite side of the shooter's body from their weakside hipbone.

Edited May 3, 2011 by JAFO

[Singlestack]

I completly agree. If it is in my hand, I'm using it.

I think we should have a ruling similar to IPSC. The "using it" argument comes down to semantics. For example if I'm carrying a hammer to a job site, I'm not exactly using it, like if I were hammering a nail.

I think the IPSC ruling is fairly new cause here is where the IPSC global village went through basically the the same discussion were having now:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3850&st=0&p=38217&hl=pocket&fromsearch=1entry38217

What I meant by "I'm using it" was, I do not consider my hand a retention device.

[Vlad]

None of this should have an effect on tossing mags on the ground or laying them next to you when going prone via 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Actually that works just fine. I can juggle my mags down range .. maybe I can toss them really high up in the air, shoot 4 targets and move into position to catch them.

I see a new event coming combining the best of action shooting and flaming baton twirling.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Vlad

[Skydiver]

None of this should have an effect on tossing mags on the ground or laying them next to you when going prone via 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Actually that works just fine. I can juggle my mags down range .. maybe I can toss them really high up in the air, shoot 4 targets and move into position to catch them.

I see a new event coming combining the best of action shooting and flaming baton twirling.

Considering that with the original rules of basketball prevent a player from moving while holding on to the ball, but may pass the ball, the early players invented dribbling as a way of passing the ball to themselves.

[Glockcomma]

I know we have come along way since this game began, some good and some not so good. The original origin of our sport was to supplement and improve the training necessary to survive a gun fight. I think if Jeff, Ray, Bert, Thell and the boys from SWCPL read this thread they would feel much like our founding fathers would about Government today.

[ima45dv8]

I know we have come along way since this game began, some good and some not so good. The original origin of our sport was to supplement and improve the training necessary to survive a gun fight. I think if Jeff, Ray, Bert, Thell and the boys from SWCPL read this thread they would feel much like our founding fathers would about Government today.

An interesting and likely valid observation, from a historical standpoint. But things evolve, and barring that, usually stagnate and wither. I'm glad we haven't. The game played then is not the one I want to play today.

I'm sure they would be equally confounded by discussions of dot-sighted open guns, 170mm magazines, the Production division, Forbidden Actions, Multi-Gun rules, "Classic" targets", and Texas Stars.

[Glockcomma]

Don't get me started on Forbidden actions and "Classic" targets. I agree with you, but seven pages on what to do with your ammo after a table start WHEW!

[ima45dv8]

Don't get me started on Forbidden actions and "Classic" targets. I agree with you, but seven pages on what to do with your ammo after a table start WHEW!

I hear you! But seven pages wouldn't even make the Top Ten List for rules discussions around here.

As someone said, I think of it as dryfire practice for ROs. Better to hash it out here than in front of a competitor during a match.

[beltjones]

Don't get me started on Forbidden actions and "Classic" targets. I agree with you, but seven pages on what to do with your ammo after a table start WHEW!

I hear you! But seven pages wouldn't even make the Top Ten List for rules discussions around here.

As someone said, I think of it as dryfire practice for ROs. Better to hash it out here than in front of a competitor during a match.

If this is dry fire for ROs, then the ruling from the DNROI is an AD in your living room. :ph34r:

Edited May 4, 2011 by beltjones

[ima45dv8]

Don't get me started on Forbidden actions and "Classic" targets. I agree with you, but seven pages on what to do with your ammo after a table start WHEW!

I hear you! But seven pages wouldn't even make the Top Ten List for rules discussions around here.

As someone said, I think of it as dryfire practice for ROs. Better to hash it out here than in front of a competitor during a match.

If this is dry fire for SOs, then the ruling from the DNROI is an AD in your living room. :ph34r:

Check yourself. SO's are part of a different organization.

Your understanding of the situation is duly noted.

[Flexmoney]

keep in mind, it's not a ruling... it is an opinion

[Flexmoney]

I know we have come along way since this game began, some good and some not so good. The original origin of our sport was to supplement and improve the training necessary to survive a gun fight. I think if Jeff, Ray, Bert, Thell and the boys from SWCPL read this thread they would feel much like our founding fathers would about Government today.

I think that is a valid point for consideration. Food for thought.

[beltjones]

Don't get me started on Forbidden actions and "Classic" targets. I agree with you, but seven pages on what to do with your ammo after a table start WHEW!

I hear you! But seven pages wouldn't even make the Top Ten List for rules discussions around here.

As someone said, I think of it as dryfire practice for ROs. Better to hash it out here than in front of a competitor during a match.

If this is dry fire for SOs, then the ruling from the DNROI is an AD in your living room. :ph34r:

Check yourself. SO's are part of a different organization.

Your understanding of the situation is duly noted.

The SO thing was a typo. I'm a USPSA RO. The other part is what sometimes is called a "joke."

[ima45dv8]

Check yourself. SO's are part of a different organization.

Your understanding of the situation is duly noted.

The SO thing was a typo. I'm a USPSA RO. The other part is what sometimes is called a "joke."

Please excuse me misinterpreting what you wrote.

I only replied to the misrepresentation of how one sport relates to another, and your assumption of what serves as an AD in my living room.

These discussions serve a useful purpose, if taken in that light.

To each his own.

[ima45dv8]

As a short update, I have it on good authority that there will soon be a solution to this question that will make this issue easier to comply with and to RO.

It should actually resolve the issue completely.

More when available...

[beltjones]

As a short update, I have it on good authority that there will soon be a solution to this question that will make this issue easier to comply with and to RO.

It should actually resolve the issue completely.

More when available...

Awesome. Thanks man.

[West Texas Granny]

None of this should have an effect on tossing mags on the ground or laying them next to you when going prone via 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Actually that works just fine. I can juggle my mags down range .. maybe I can toss them really high up in the air, shoot 4 targets and move into position to catch them.

I see a new event coming combining the best of action shooting and flaming baton twirling.

I can see the rule fights now on where one can light up their baton and the minimum amount of flame required for each division. Going to need that PFF ( power flame factor) and a way to test it. Can't wait to see the open division of action shooting and flaming baton twirling. RO's in their fire suits.

[JAFO]

None of this should have an effect on tossing mags on the ground or laying them next to you when going prone via 5.5.2:5.5.2Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Actually that works just fine. I can juggle my mags down range .. maybe I can toss them really high up in the air, shoot 4 targets and move into position to catch them. I see a new event coming combining the best of action shooting and flaming baton twirling.

I wasn't advocating this as any kind of practical technique. I was responding to a previous post, but I forgot to quote it:

lets take a regular loaded and holsterd start. You are saying at after the start signal that I cannot take my magazines, throw 'em all over the place and reload from where they lay even though at the start signal all magazines started within all division requirements of placement and storage devices. So it's not freestyle.

Mainly, I cited the rule because it does exempt laying mags/speedloaders on the ground for use in the prone position from this discussion.

[JAFO]

None of this should have an effect on tossing mags on the ground or laying them next to you when going prone via 5.5.2:

5.5.2

Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

Actually that works just fine. I can juggle my mags down range .. maybe I can toss them really high up in the air, shoot 4 targets and move into position to catch them.

I see a new event coming combining the best of action shooting and flaming baton twirling.

I can see the rule fights now on where one can light up their baton and the minimum amount of flame required for each division. Going to need that PFF ( power flame factor) and a way to test it. Can't wait to see the open division of action shooting and flaming baton twirling. RO's in their fire suits.

I always wanted a reason to dress up like John Wayne in Hellfighters!