Understanding 5.2.4

[ima45dv8]

On second thought, I'm going to make sure you RO me on the first stage (I'll be shooting SS.) I'll barney up from a 10 round mag that I take out of my front pocket, and put the mag back in my front pocket.

And since you wouldn't do that until you've received the Make Ready command, which would signify the Course of Fire has begun, the very act of pulling a 10-round magazine would move you to the Open division. Right?

At the end of the stage, I'll take the loose round and stick it in the same pocket. I'll make sure you see me so that when the buzzer goes off on stage 2 you'll have no doubt that I have a loose round in my front pocket.

I've never shot open before. It should be fun.

You're already there, and have deprived John the pleasure of groping your pockets

[whitedog]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

[mhs]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

[Sarge]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! The rule states after the start signal!!!!

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 19

20 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12

[GrumpyOne]

Slight thread drift....What is the definition of the start signal? From the post above by Ima45dv8, it's at the load and make ready command, but your time doesn't start until the buzzer, which is (and sometimes can be well after) the load and make ready command, so is the load and make ready part of the course of fire? And if it is, then where is the signal (it states signal, not voice command)?

It is my understanding that the shooter can pause, say wait a moment, hold on, whatever, after the load and make ready command, and if, when he/she is asked "Shooter are you ready?" can reply that no, they are not, then how can the course of fire be started?

At that point, it would still be legal to have ammo, mags and/or speedloaders in your front pockets, as the course of fire had not begun yet.

[jar]

The start signal is the beep. See 8.3.4 which reads in part: “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire.

The course of fire begins at Make Ready. See 8.3.1 which reads in part: “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

[GrumpyOne]

The start signal is the beep. See 8.3.4 which reads in part: “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire.

The course of fire begins at Make Ready. See 8.3.1 which reads in part: “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

I was at work, and didn't have my rule book with me(Shame on me, I know!), but by 5.2.4, it's only AFTER the start signal is the ammo or mag/speedloader in the front pocket prohibited.

So, it's legal, until the beep, right? So you can walk up to the line, 10 round barney in front pocket, load the gun, put the barney back into your front pocket, and you still aren't moved to open. Signal goes off, if the barney mag is still in your pocket, then you are moved to open.

[Skydiver]

The start signal is the beep. See 8.3.4 which reads in part: "Start Signal" – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire.

The course of fire begins at Make Ready. See 8.3.1 which reads in part: "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire".

I was at work, and didn't have my rule book with me(Shame on me, I know!), but by 5.2.4, it's only AFTER the start signal is the ammo or mag/speedloader in the front pocket prohibited.

So, it's legal, until the beep, right? So you can walk up to the line, 10 round barney in front pocket, load the gun, put the barney back into your front pocket, and you still aren't moved to open. Signal goes off, if the barney mag is still in your pocket, then you are moved to open.

Yes.

And assuming you are shooting single stack major, even if you put the 10 round barney mag in your back pocket, you are also moved to open. See this thread for more detailed discussion: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125249

[Sarge]

The start signal is the beep. See 8.3.4 which reads in part: "Start Signal" – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire.

The course of fire begins at Make Ready. See 8.3.1 which reads in part: "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire".

I was at work, and didn't have my rule book with me(Shame on me, I know!), but by 5.2.4, it's only AFTER the start signal is the ammo or mag/speedloader in the front pocket prohibited.

So, it's legal, until the beep, right? So you can walk up to the line, 10 round barney in front pocket, load the gun, put the barney back into your front pocket, and you still aren't moved to open. Signal goes off, if the barney mag is still in your pocket, then you are moved to open.

That is correct.

[whitedog]

Ok, so before beep yes. After beep no. I know I'm over simplifying it. But this tiny mind needs little thoughts. Am I correct now? For production that is. Thanks.

[whitedog]

Also.....course of starts at make ready. Correct? Sorry about drift, but it was referenced above. Thanks.

[adively]

Ok, so before beep yes. After beep no. I know I'm over simplifying it. But this tiny mind needs little thoughts. Am I correct now? For production that is. Thanks.

Correct.

Also.....course of starts at make ready. Correct? Sorry about drift, but it was referenced above. Thanks.

Correct.

8.3 Range Communication

The approved range commands and their sequence are as follows:

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of

Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range

Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance

with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume

the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

Emphasis added by me.

[Sarge]

Yes and Yes.

[whitedog]

Thanks guys.

[mhs]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! The rule states after the start signal!!!!

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 19

20 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12

Look at page 68, March/April 2011 Front Sight.

[badchad]

Is this a good rule/wording of the rule? As I read it, the practical implications are that Single Stack and Production shooters are forced to sit on their magazines and loose rounds throughout the match. Is there any reason why that needs to be? I mean I really can't think of any competitive advantage one might gain by keeping Barney rounds and magazines in the front pocket. IMO the front pocket is both more convenient and more "practical."

[Sarge]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! The rule states after the start signal!!!!

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 19

20 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12

Look at page 68, March/April 2011 Front Sight.

Don't have it yet I guess. So you must be telling me that somebody has made a ruling that is contradictory to the official rule book?

[adively]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! The rule states after the start signal!!!!

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 19

20 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12

Look at page 68, March/April 2011 Front Sight.

Don't have it yet I guess. So you must be telling me that somebody has made a ruling that is contradictory to the official rule book?

Page 68:

No Mags In The Front Pockets? Really?

Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules.

Answer

Unfortunately, yes it does.

Appendix D1 item 12 states yes to restrictions on position of equipment, appendix E3 shoes that restriction and 6.2.5.1 states if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time, they are moved to Open.

There is nothing wrong with having magazines in the back pockets or another pocket behind the hip bone.

Dang forgot about that.

[GrumpyOne]

I think they are reading something into it that isn't there:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the

equipment or other requirements of a

declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division,

if available, otherwise the competitor will

shoot the match for no score.

The answer that was given above states "if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time", where as the rule book states "during a course of fire".

Also, "during a course of fire" is only for that course of fire....It doesn't say for the entire match.... "A" being singular. Had it been wrote "during the courses of fire", or "during the match", then it would be prohibited at any and all times.

I would want more clarification of that rule....By the rule book, as long as you aren't "in the course of fire", then you can carry anything you want in your front pockets....

Edited April 8, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[mhs]

I think they are reading something into it that isn't there:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the

equipment or other requirements of a

declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division,

if available, otherwise the competitor will

shoot the match for no score.

The answer that was given above states "if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time", where as the rule book states "during a course of fire".

Also, "during a course of fire" is only for that course of fire....It doesn't say for the entire match.... "A" being singular. Had it been wrote "during the courses of fire", or "during the match", then it would be prohibited at any and all times.

I would want more clarification of that rule....By the rule book, as long as you aren't "in the course of fire", then you can carry anything you want in your front pockets....

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the restriction is only during the COF.

[Singlestack]

I think they are reading something into it that isn't there:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the

equipment or other requirements of a

declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division,

if available, otherwise the competitor will

shoot the match for no score.

The answer that was given above states "if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time", where as the rule book states "during a course of fire".

Also, "during a course of fire" is only for that course of fire....It doesn't say for the entire match.... "A" being singular. Had it been wrote "during the courses of fire", or "during the match", then it would be prohibited at any and all times.

I would want more clarification of that rule....By the rule book, as long as you aren't "in the course of fire", then you can carry anything you want in your front pockets....

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the restriction is only during the COF.

Yes, which begins at Make Ready.

[spanky]

"Make Ready"

Shooter pulls start mag from front pocket

*Welcome to Open*

"Make Ready"

Shooter pulls start mag from rear pouch, pops 11th round off for unloaded start and puts it in his front pocket

*Welcome to Open*

Amirite?

Edited April 8, 2011 by spanky

[Sarge]

My understanding, as a production shooter, is no ammo in front pockets ever. Period. Am I wrong?

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! The rule states after the start signal!!!!

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 19

20 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12

Look at page 68, March/April 2011 Front Sight.

Don't have it yet I guess. So you must be telling me that somebody has made a ruling that is contradictory to the official rule book?

Page 68:

No Mags In The Front Pockets? Really?

Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules.

Answer

Unfortunately, yes it does.

Appendix D1 item 12 states yes to restrictions on position of equipment, appendix E3 shoes that restriction and 6.2.5.1 states if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time, they are moved to Open.

There is nothing wrong with having magazines in the back pockets or another pocket behind the hip bone.

Dang forgot about that.

I see a problem here. Two rules contradict each other and only one is being quoted. This reply makes it sound like 5.2.4 does not even exist.

If the question had been submitted quoting that rule the answer would have likely been different.

I think that 5.2.4 is more relevant as it does say during the course of fire but it also adds that it is after the start signal which is the only time it makes any difference. Having a mag in the wrong place before you start shooting gives no advantage whatsoever. But after the start signal and shooting starts then it could be an advantage.

Clearly, if any thought at all is given here, one can see the insanity of bumping a shooter to Open for pulling a mag out of his front pocket to load his gun at make ready. For one thing, Rule 5.2.4 allows it, and secondly common sense has to play a part in what we do in this or any sport. I think that is why the rule is written as it is. Somebody on the committee said, "it makes no difference where a mag is before the beep so lets clarify that by stating after the start signal".

I look at 5.2.4 as enhancing the other sighted rules.

With all due respect I think this ruling was made without considering all the rules and facts.

Perhaps it is being reviewed further since it is not showing up in the official NROI rulings on the USPSA website yet?

[mhs]

I see a problem here. Two rules contradict each other and only one is being quoted. This reply makes it sound like 5.2.4 does not even exist.

If the question had been submitted quoting that rule the answer would have likely been different.

I think that 5.2.4 is more relevant as it does say during the course of fire but it also adds that it is after the start signal which is the only time it makes any difference. Having a mag in the wrong place before you start shooting gives no advantage whatsoever. But after the start signal and shooting starts then it could be an advantage.

Clearly, if any thought at all is given here, one can see the insanity of bumping a shooter to Open for pulling a mag out of his front pocket to load his gun at make ready. For one thing, Rule 5.2.4 allows it, and secondly common sense has to play a part in what we do in this or any sport. I think that is why the rule is written as it is. Somebody on the committee said, "it makes no difference where a mag is before the beep so lets clarify that by stating after the start signal".

I look at 5.2.4 as enhancing the other sighted rules.

With all due respect I think this ruling was made without considering all the rules and facts.

Perhaps it is being reviewed further since it is not showing up in the official NROI rulings on the USPSA website yet?

They don't contradict each other.

The first part of 5.2.4 tells you that you still need to carry your mags properly after the start signal (you can't pick them all up off the table and carry them in your hand). The second part tells you that a pocket located within division requirements counts as a mag pouch.

6.2.5.1 tells you what happens if you don't comply with division requirements during the COF.

[sperman]

We just went through all of this not too long ago

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125249

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123213