How do you pie around a barricade?

[SeaTact]

Having watched a good number of shooters at IDPA meets, I'm seeing 2 styles when one shoots around a Bianchi-style barricade. Some (this is what I've been doing, as a relatively new shooter) keep their torso and their gun vertical while they pie around-- the sight stays straight up-and-down at 12 o' clock. Others seem to lean at an angle, they're still "indexed", but their torso and their sights are angled off-vertical-- 10 degrees, 30 degrees, sometimes up to 45 degrees if they have to pie way the heck around.

Is there a "right" way to do this-- as long as you don't violate the 50% rule?

Edited April 3, 2011 by SeaTact

[waktasz]

I have found I don't get as good hits if my gun is not vertical.

[Gary H.]

I just recently finished an S/O class, so I'm pretty new to making judgement calls. But, there was a big discussion on this issue. The rule says 50% of the upper torso. Our instructor insisted that it was 100% of the lower body. He's been wrong before on issues so I'm not absolutely positive on this one but it is the way I'll have to enforce it at our club until told to do otherwise. It was brought up that the majority of all "cover" calls/penalties are for feet and legs. I know when I S/O, I'm more lenient on individuals that are advanced in age or physically challenged in a way that makes it more difficult for them to lean that far. But lean you must if you don't want a cover call. All of the better shooters I've seen lean and still have their head and shoulders pretty upright meaning they are not canting their guns very much if at all, with a few exceptions.

[waktasz]

Did you not read through the rulebook at your SO class?

[Steve Koski]

Page 76:

Cover: 1) More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be

behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For

low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover

such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must

be behind cover.

[SeaTact]

Thanks, so far 2 people mention that their upper torso and sights stay vertical. Steve K, how do you shoot?

Edited April 3, 2011 by SeaTact

[Gary H.]

Did you not read through the rulebook at your SO class?

LOL, are you saying it's all there? Because its not, and it's not all written clearly! The rule say 50% of the upper torso and does not mention the lower unless it is vertical cover. You know, what kind of question was that anyway? Do you think anyone would run an S/O class without one?

Edited April 3, 2011 by Gary H.

[Steve Koski]

ST:

I'm not 100% sure, would have to review some videos of myself. I try to minimize foot movement, so I would guess that I tilt a bit as I lean out.

I also suspect it has a lot to do on target distance. At 5 yards you can tilt and lean with no loss in meaningful accuracy. At 30 yards this probably falls apart.

[SeaTact]

I also suspect it has a lot to do on target distance. At 5 yards you can tilt and lean with no loss in meaningful accuracy. At 30 yards this probably falls apart.

That makes a lot of sense. I never thought about factoring in the distance. I've got a classifier coming up this month and I'll probably stay vertical for stage 3.

[Dan Burwell]

It all depends on the target and the stage. I try to keep everything upright but not at the expense of time, I'd rather take an off angled shot than waste time moving my feet.

If you don't practice shooting with your gun canted, your hits (on anything beyond 7yds) are probably going to suck until you figure out what you need to see.

[robot]

here's the latest PowerFactor Show that talks about shooting behind cover. Always try to keep the gun vertical.

http://www.powerfactorshow.com/2011/04/03/episode-17-idpa-cover-kneeling-prone/

[Punkin Chunker]

Sights are adjusted for windage and elevation.

Elevation counters the effects of gravity.

Gravity always works in the vertical.

When you tip the gun, gravity remains vertical, but the elevation adjustment no longer works in the vertical.

So I'm guessing that if you tip to the right, you will likely shoot low and to the right, if you are shooting at a distance for which your sights are adjusted to point of impact.

[jaredr]

the rule I was taught for shooting a carbine when canted around cover is to "aim high on the magazine side". i.e. if the gun is canted to the right (ejection port facing down towards the ground, magazine sticking out to my left), then I would aim high left (10:00 or so) to get center hits. if canted the other way (gun lying on the side with the ejection port facing up, magazine sticking out to the right) then I would aim high right (2:00 or so).

that being said, i've found this really only comes into play beyond 50-60 yards. @ 30 yards, if I have the dot (eotech or aimpoint) squarely in the A-zone, i don't see much difference whether the rifle is canted or not - rounds still hit pretty much in the middle of the A zone. @ 100 yards, I definitely need to have a different hold over if I am canting the rifle, but those are not shots I see very often in a course of fire (actually, I've never seen any targets @ 100 yards that required me to cant the rifle around cover, but maybe I'm not getting out often enough).

For pistols, I've seen no real difference inside of 20 yards regardless of how I am canting the gun. Just playing around at the range shooting off of a rest, i've found point of impact shifts less than an inch for me when I lay the gun all the way over on the left side (I didn't bother trying the right). It's certainly possible that you may see a greater change with you your pistol/grip, but we may be talking about a degree of precision that's not usually necessary for these sports (IPSC/IDPA). Bianchi may be a different matter, but their rules regarding how you engage cover (and how you can modify your pistol to assist with this) are <worlds> different from IDPA and IPSC:roflol:

[hankfan79]

I shoot normal around a barricade. However, the further the target is around the barricade, the lower my body position goes to maintain stability. As I turn my body gets lower and lower.

[Duane Thomas]

Max Michel has some excellent instruction on shooting around a vertical barricade in 3GM².

[slodsm]

My method is most likely improper but it depends on the side I'm shooting around. If I'm going around the right side of the barricade I can stay vertical and get faster hits on target. On the left however thanks to a whole stack of injuries from the Corps including collapsed disks, cracked vertebrae, and a torn rotator cuff, I have to lean and cant my sights and it takes me longer to get good hits while staying covered. Still fairly accurate though as stage 3 on my last classifier was 30 down 7 or 8 (sketchy memory on points down).

[Duane Thomas]

Nicely done! That's pretty smokin' performance, dude, even for a guy with all his vertebrae in the original condition.

[want2race]

Without going into too much detail: Keep your upper torso as vertical as you can, if you dip your outside elbow down (angled lean out) your shots have a much higher chance of going wide/low. I see it all the time in training. We see better with our eyes parrallel to the ground, if you lean out at an angle your eyes are also at an angle. This distorts your visual perception.

It's not that you can't hit the target while leaning out at even a 45* angle, if the sights are aligned, you will hit. The problem is with our balance and vision while leaned over. Trying to go as fast as possible is when this usually becomes an issue. I haven't even mentioned recoil management while leaning over...

To help keep the gun and head vertical, make it a point to keep your outside elbow up (level when leaning out).

Just my .02

[kalebg]

I shoot normal around a barricade. However, the further the target is around the barricade, the lower my body position goes to maintain stability. As I turn my body gets lower and lower.

This is the key. Very stable and simple.