Wild Gene Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Just for the record, if we get carried away and start assigning ROs to the porta-johns, I'm letting my certification lapse! Yeah, but think how much shorter the lines will be once they implement the par time! There goes the "3 shake" rule..lol Men's Divison.... Ha, I wondered how long it would take for the potty humor to start. Just so the safe zone ain't by the outhouse, that's all I care about! (sorry for the completely non constructive comment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Even with a loaded handgun during the cof that is allowed - he was going for his holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. Edited March 30, 2011 by Coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Thats the common sense approach I'd use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Can you clean a gun in the safe area? If yes, can you run a cleaning rod or bore snake through your gun without sweeping yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Can you clean a gun in the safe area? If yes, can you run a cleaning rod or bore snake through your gun without sweeping yourself? well now, good question where is Amidon when we think we need him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 If you disassemble it first, I wouldn't see a problem. Otherwise... I don't know. How is it handled when someone puts a squib rod down a barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes, and yes. Troy Can you clean a gun in the safe area? If yes, can you run a cleaning rod or bore snake through your gun without sweeping yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 When I've served as RM at a few majors, I've been very fortunate that the Match Directors agreed to have rear fault lines and/or caution tape strung up to make an "entrance" to the safe areas. We created a doorway, sort of. I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of having safe areas that aren't defined. With respect to "safe directions" in a safe area, I've seen too many safe areas where swinging a gun even 40 degrees off median would have you pointing a gun at a group of competitors in the next bay. We should maybe consider something along the "safe points" used in IDPA. I'm considering placing orange cups on the outer limits of the backstops in the safe areas at GA State this year, with a sign saying the muzzle must remain within that arc. That way, even if you back up, the angle changes but the direction doesn't. As for John's/Singlestack's situation, I get the fact that he felt shocked at his own behavior and he doesn't recommend it. He raised the question more as a point of, "I hate what I did. How do we prevent that in the future?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes, and yes. Troy Can you clean a gun in the safe area? If yes, can you run a cleaning rod or bore snake through your gun without sweeping yourself? thanks Troy I think that sometimes we read way too much into things Safe Area is a Safe Area, no ammo if you have ammo it is a DQ if you walk over there and pull your gun out and a snap cap pops out, it is a DQ You walk away holding gun in hand, holster and go home put some logic here if you are over there practicing quick draw and spinging your gun around like a movie cowboy, you are at the wrong match and go home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 When I've served as RM at a few majors, I've been very fortunate that the Match Directors agreed to have rear fault lines and/or caution tape strung up to make an "entrance" to the safe areas. We created a doorway, sort of. I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of having safe areas that aren't defined. With respect to "safe directions" in a safe area, I've seen too many safe areas where swinging a gun even 40 degrees off median would have you pointing a gun at a group of competitors in the next bay. We should maybe consider something along the "safe points" used in IDPA. I'm considering placing orange cups on the outer limits of the backstops in the safe areas at GA State this year, with a sign saying the muzzle must remain within that arc. Those seem like good ideas. As for John's/Singlestack's situation, I get the fact that he felt shocked at his own behavior and he doesn't recommend it. He raised the question more as a point of, "I hate what I did. How do we prevent that in the future?" I, for one, took it that way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. If a member of the match staff happens to see the shooter though -- or if another competitor or bystander brings it to the RM's attention, and the shooter tells the truth when asked -- then a match dq might be applied.... The unwritten policy at our club matches is that the ROs are never truly off duty. When possible we try to prevent DQs, but if a safety breach has occurred at the safe table, and one of us sees it, we make the call, which includes notification of the RM, so the shooter may be heard or counseled, as appropriate.... I've headed off a couple of DQs at the safe table, and unfortunately have also seen a couple called in the last decade..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 When I've served as RM at a few majors, I've been very fortunate that the Match Directors agreed to have rear fault lines and/or caution tape strung up to make an "entrance" to the safe areas. We created a doorway, sort of. I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of having safe areas that aren't defined. With respect to "safe directions" in a safe area, I've seen too many safe areas where swinging a gun even 40 degrees off median would have you pointing a gun at a group of competitors in the next bay. We should maybe consider something along the "safe points" used in IDPA. I'm considering placing orange cups on the outer limits of the backstops in the safe areas at GA State this year, with a sign saying the muzzle must remain within that arc. That way, even if you back up, the angle changes but the direction doesn't. As an addition, I'd also like to point out that safe area signs should be at table height. I once walked off of a stage after shooting and received my score sheet with my consumed magazines in my hands - looking for a place to put them down. The safe area was right next to the stage and actually was the closest table. On the way to set my magazines down I stopped short and freaked, turned and moved away -- looking up and over my shoulder, about 8 feet off the ground was the safe area sign above my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 As an addition, I'd also like to point out that safe area signs should be at table height. I once walked off of a stage after shooting and received my score sheet with my consumed magazines in my hands - looking for a place to put them down. The safe area was right next to the stage and actually was the closest table. On the way to set my magazines down I stopped short and freaked, turned and moved away -- looking up and over my shoulder, about 8 feet off the ground was the safe area sign above my head. A good point. One I'll be keeping in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I think that sometimes we read way too much into things No doubt. Safe Area is a Safe Area, no ammoif you have ammo it is a DQ Again, I'm with you on that. if you walk over there and pull your gun out and a snap cap pops out, it is a DQ We're batting 1,000. You walk away holding gun in hand, holster and go home For the most part I agree but I like having a hard line to draw in the sand. "Walking away" should have a delineation. That's why I promote rear fault lines for safe areas. As for turning "uprange" away from the safe area's backstop, that should be a DQ. With all due respect to John, I think he would agree. 'Nuff said on that. put some logic hereif you are over there practicing quick draw and spinging your gun around like a movie cowboy, you are at the wrong match and go home That's a bit extreme, at least for the matches I've been to. I've only ever heard of one competitor spinging spinning his gun over, and that was during "Unload and Show Clear", and he was appropriately DQ'd for his foolishness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Safe Area is a Safe Area, no ammoif you have ammo it is a DQ Again, I'm with you on that. As long as the competitor is "handling the ammo," right? Mere possession -- on the belt, in a range bag -- isn't enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. If a member of the match staff happens to see the shooter though -- or if another competitor or bystander brings it to the RM's attention, and the shooter tells the truth when asked -- then a match dq might be applied.... The unwritten policy at our club matches is that the ROs are never truly off duty. When possible we try to prevent DQs, but if a safety breach has occurred at the safe table, and one of us sees it, we make the call, which includes notification of the RM, so the shooter may be heard or counseled, as appropriate.... I've headed off a couple of DQs at the safe table, and unfortunately have also seen a couple called in the last decade..... As far as I can tell sweeping is legal as long as it is not in the COF. What rule would you guys apply to DQ someone sweeping themself in the safe area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Safe Area is a Safe Area, no ammoif you have ammo it is a DQ Again, I'm with you on that. As long as the competitor is "handling the ammo," right? Mere possession -- on the belt, in a range bag -- isn't enough.... Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. +1 Show me the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) As far as I can tell sweeping is legal as long as it is not in the COF. What rule would you guys apply to DQ someone sweeping themself in the safe area? If push came to shove, the rule I would apply would be 2.4.1 which includes the phrase "the firearm is pointed is a safe direction". (This is parallel to the way 5.2.3 is used to DQ people who remove their belt while the gun is holstered.) But for me, it'll have to be a really bad case of willful sweeping and including having a trigger in the finger guard pulling the trigger or simulating pulling the trigger while the sweeping is happening. Note that the glossary's definition of sweeping doesn't distinguish between yourself or another person, unlike 10.5.5 which only talks about the competitor during the course of fire. An example of really bad cases of sweeping would be: Standing in the safety area, and then drawing and pointing the gun at another person even if that person is within the arc of the "safe direction" indicated in the safety area. Tangent to this, since I've brought up the point about "safe direction", would you DQ somebody practicing their reloads where the muzzle of the gun goes beyond the arc of the indicated safe direction? Would you DQ somebody who in the process of uncasing or unbagging their gun discovers that the gun is pointed at themselves instead of the safe direction? Probably not. In the end, as Danscrapbags said earlier, applying common sense would be good in the safety area. Edited March 31, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Nope. 2.4.1 says nothing about 180. My pistol was pointed down. That's a safe direction. Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. If a member of the match staff happens to see the shooter though -- or if another competitor or bystander brings it to the RM's attention, and the shooter tells the truth when asked -- then a match dq might be applied.... The unwritten policy at our club matches is that the ROs are never truly off duty. When possible we try to prevent DQs, but if a safety breach has occurred at the safe table, and one of us sees it, we make the call, which includes notification of the RM, so the shooter may be heard or counseled, as appropriate.... I've headed off a couple of DQs at the safe table, and unfortunately have also seen a couple called in the last decade..... As far as I can tell sweeping is legal as long as it is not in the COF. What rule would you guys apply to DQ someone sweeping themself in the safe area? 10.5.1 and 2.4.1 2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms. 2.4.1.2 Practice the mounting, drawing, “dry-firing” and re-holstering of unloaded firearms. 2.4.1.3 Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a firearm. 2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories. 2.4.1 puts some restrictions on what you may do in a safe area (enumerated in .1-.4), and imposes some requirements -- gotta stay within the confines AND gotta keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction. Sweeping yourself is never safe, so you've busted 2.4.1, and that means that 10.5.1 comes into play: 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. Being that I'm thorough, I'd also cite Section 10.5 in general: 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: And again, I'd need to be certain the violation had occurred, not just think it might have.... I have never seen anyone dq'd for this at a safe table, but I've issued a few muzzle warnings, to keep one from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I say we get RO's for the safe tables "Make Unready" "Standby" "If you are finished, remain clear and drop hammer" "Safe area is clear." Just for the record, if we get carried away and start assigning ROs to the porta-johns, I'm letting my certification lapse! That cracked me up! (...crack up...NOT the way to use a porta-john) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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