Transitioning guns

[rhino]

We reach, KurtM! You are a very perceptive and wise individual.

[ErikW]

The RO can't easily verify the safety lever position of a slinged rifle.

The RO shouldn't be expected to control two firearms.

[Barrettone]

I agree Erik!!! We're asking too much of the RO!!!

Jeff

[Flexmoney]

The big difference that I see is that the long gun has the trigger exposed, where a holstered handgun doesn't. And, I can see/verify if Jonnie Newshooter puts on his safety during LAMR.

I've shot the 3-gun Michigan state match last year at Barrettone's club, I've shot a number of the 3-gun matches in Ohio, and I have a bit of a feel for the Indiana shooters that Rhino hangs with. I gotta say...we are all pretty much newbies. I'm sure they are out there, but I don't know of two shooters in all of the three states that I would feel comfortable RO'ing while they transitioned a hot gun to a sling.

Heck, I doubt I know two shooter that have the proper sling to do so, let alone having it setup correctly. And, I am sure that we don't have anybody practicing the skill. (I guess I fear the unknow in this case. And, that might be the biggest hurdle...proving the activities are safe enough to allow those like me to be comfortable.)

I am also sure that I would feel completely comfortable with Kurt, and the crew that he runs with, transitioning to a sling. They have the experience, training, and they practice that sort of thing.

I don't know what the answer is. I hate to see a skill set "regulated" away.

[Patrick Sweeney]

A step back here: First, if we are extrapolating from a defensive/law enforcement/military context of the transition to handgun, we've lost sight of something: they do so becuase the long gun is kaput. Out of ammo or out of service. No one deliberately switches to the sidearm when the long gun still works.

As for letting it drop to a tac sling to proceed, I'm against it. As pointed out, the RO can't verify the safety selector position. Likewise, even if it is on safe when dropped, there is no guarantee it won't get brushed off by body parts, gear or wardrobe malfunctions.

Yes, it is nominally in a safe direction hanging on the sling, but one bump in a doorway, window, corner or other prop, and the muzzle can swing back at the RO, spectators or the shooter. And what to do with low ports, kneeling or other positions? Muzzle in the dirt, or three-handed contortions to keep the muzzle clear and still shoot?

I know we should be elevating the skill levels of competitors, but I can't see how to do it, stay safe, and remain consistent under the rules.

I'd say one way to manage transitions in a match environment is to use big blue plastic drums, in frames tilted down at a 45 degree angle. Safety on, and dump the rifle/shotgun into the barrel muzzle first. As long as the barrel is oriented in a safe direction, and is stable enough not to tip over, a long gun in the drum is safe until the shooter can get back and unload it. Make an ND while "drumming" a DQ offense, and competitors will be as safe as they can be.

[Barrettone]

I agree with Pat...We have talked about this, and believe that a canted drum with a cushion at the bottom (so as to not abuse ones rifle) would be the perfect solution. A lot of people want to keep the gun on them, but as Pat points out, there are a lot of perils that could befall the competitor, RO, or spectators. I want to go home to my wife and kids at the end of the day...that is why I shoot IPSC...it is the safest thing going.

Regards,

Jeff

[Barrettone]

BTW...Kurt,

It is unfortunate, but we have to appeal to the lowest common denominator ( a complete newbie, shooting 3-gun for the first time, at his or her first-ever IPSC match, using a gun that they may not have even test-fired before they came to the match). I know it sounds extreme, but some people do not take the same precautions as you or I would when preparing for a match. It is for this reason, that these sometime "constrictive" rules exist. They are not there for master class shooters...but rather to serve the whole. What you or I may percieve as safe, is not exactly safe for everyone. You say people are still nervous before the beep. That may be true, but I've seen some incredibly stupid things done in the heat of the moment on a COF from some of the safest people I know. Adrenaline does crazy things to some people. If we could simulate it, cops probably wouldn't freeze-up and get killed as much, for they could train like that. But back to the point...We simply cannot ever sacrifice safety for the sake of having something "funner". I take some exception to the remark that it is "much ado about nothing". Please consider my family and those other shooters families that could be without them should an accident befall them. The "but we were just having fun" line doesn't bring them back. It sounds extreme, but I seriously believe it COULD happen.

DVC,

Jeff

[JFD]

I really like the 45 degree drum idea. It's cheap and easy for the people like me who have to set this stuff up. Seems like the safest option and I wouldn't feel stupid moving forward past the "drummed" long gun.

I am a little surprised that USPSA doesn't already have an answer for this question yet. When I first posted my question, I really expected to be directed somewhere on the USPSA site for the current scoop on the subject.

I believe 3-gun will save my match. My match is on the 3rd Sunday when there's already a match on the 3rd Saturday. Zero help with setup and less than needed on tear-down has me ready to call it quits at the end of this year. With 3-gun I anticipate crossover shooters who just might be willing to help out.

Honestly, the only reason I kept the match going for another year is that the club is 5 miles from my house and I can't stand the thought of shooting our IDPA or outlaw matches and having to travel to a different club to shoot USPSA. I'm so anal about my stages that my club's other matches seem really lame. Basically I'm running the match for myself at this point, needing other shooters just to pay expenses.

[Barrettone]

JFD...

Where EXACTLY is your club????

Jeff

[rhino]

Heck, I doubt I know two shooter that have the proper sling to do so, let alone having it setup correctly. And, I am sure that we don't have anybody practicing the skill. (I guess I fear the unknow in this case. And, that might be the biggest hurdle...proving the activities are safe enough to allow those like me to be comfortable.)

I am also sure that I would feel completely comfortable with Kurt, and the crew that he runs with, transitioning to a sling. They have the experience, training, and they practice that sort of thing.

I don't know what the answer is. I hate to see a skill set "regulated" away.

I know you don't mean anything by it, but your message is just a little bit condescending. I think you're making the mistake that because I am slow and don't win matches that I don't know how to transition from my rifle to my pistol safely. I've been competing in 3-gun (and 4-gun because we did bolt guns a long time ago around here too) since 1995. I may not be very good at the competitive aspects, but I am always very safe and I do not try to do things I can't handle safely.

If you like, I'll demonstrate for you. I have had professional training (Louis Awerbuck) and I can scan my credentials if e-mail them to you if you like. Maybe Louis will write a note for me if that will help. I haven't practiced the skill much in the last couple of months (and none with live fire recently), but it's a little easier to do than a lot of skills that are somewhat more "perishable."

Heck, I can do it with my single point bungee sling AND I can do it with a carry strap, both very safely and while keeping the rifle under control. I'll be glad to teach you how to do it with either. I've never used any of the 3-point slings, so I will defer to someone else on that. A Chalker Sling is something I've not used, but because of its design it's almost trivially easy.

Now, whether or not such maneuvers are appropriate for competitive 3-gun matches is a debatable issue, but I don't think you should assume that specific persons don't know how, haven't been "trained," and haven't practiced it, especially when your sole source of information is this forum and seeing mediocre performance in terms of competition. If you want to impugn my IPSC skills, be my guest! They suck! But that again is a different topic.

Of course, you're free to you believe what you will. You might want to avoid the area in August when I'm in my classes again, though, because I'll be doing transitions and moving and shooting and all that extra scary stuff quite a bit. And at night, in the dark too!

[rhino]

I'd say one way to manage transitions in a match environment is to use big blue plastic drums, in frames tilted down at a 45 degree angle. Safety on, and dump the rifle/shotgun into the barrel muzzle first. As long as the barrel is oriented in a safe direction, and is stable enough not to tip over, a long gun in the drum is safe until the shooter can get back and unload it. Make an ND while "drumming" a DQ offense, and competitors will be as safe as they can be.

That's actually a really good idea. Coincidentally, I thought of pretty much the same thing (although with something other than a barrel), but I like your idea better.

But it "grounding"/abandoning the gun should still be just one option.

[kurtm]

Barrettone:

The "much ado about nothing" was aimed specifically at the slung down rifle and the holster cant. NOT about safety in general. The more we treat people like children, the more people who act like children will show up. NO ONE should have to practice "rapid unloads". It should be empty or safe, and put it down in a safe direction. I like the barrel idea! The most UNSAFE gyrations I have EVER seen are from people triing to "speed unload" Think about the family of the guy driving his car 3 miles away who "stops" the round discharged over the berm by a "speed unload". Oh yea, it's a match DQ to roach one over the berm...I forgot...that takes care of it!! Speed unloading is dangerous!!! It is far better to have one blast into the ground while hot reholstering or dropping on a sling, than letting one drive over the berm! Once a firearm is grounded in a safe direction, safety on or not, we must trust that it won't discharge "all on it's own" If it does we must decrease the round count so "cook offs" don't occur KURTM

[Barrettone]

Kurt,

I must admit...I am spoiled. We have baffle systems on all our ranges, so rounds leaving the range is not an option. Other ranges aren't afforded this luxury. But, do you REALLY think that everyone (regardless of specialized training) can be in control of two weapons simultaneously? Bumping into props, different shooting positions, and all this coupled with movement is a recipe for disaster IMO. I also have to worry about our RO's, as it is a tall order for them, as Erik pointed out, to control the situation...After all, not all RO's are as seasoned as we would like. Recognizing a situation as dangerous and stopping it is tough enough with one gun, let alone two. Our sport has an unparalelled record for safety, and we have to keep it that way. It is NOT treating competitors like "children", it is just that we have to keep things user-friendly for newbies as well if we are to grow, or even maintain our sport. I know, that for veterans such as yourself, that this can be frustrating, as we all want to have fun, but doing so, and not taking into account that "lowest common denominator" is not a good idea IMHO. A wise man once said..."the best solution and/or compromise is usually one that upsets both parties just a little". We can accomplish this by ALLOWING transitioning, but by dictating that the weapon MUST be grounded in a suitable devise. The jury is still out on whether or not that weapon is to be cleared as well. If it is pointed downward, safety on in a barrel, I feel confident that this could be achieved. I would add, however, that it should be mandated that all COF that have a transition MUST have two RO's, so that one can maintain control of the ditched weapon until it is safely cleared and in the rack and/or bag (standing guard, as it were). I do believe forward movement could continue under these types of circumstances. With the above proposal, we get transitions and forward movement, but we don't get to carry the gun with us. The transition naysayers get a high degree of safety, don't have weapons slung during competitor movement, but they lose the battle of NO TRANSITIONS. Everybody is just a little inconvenienced. Sounds like a good compromise to me!!!

DVC,

Jeff

[Flexmoney]

I know you don't mean anything by it, but your message is just a little bit condescending. I think you're making the mistake that because I am slow and don't win matches that I don't know how to transition from my rifle to my pistol safely.

....I don't think you should assume that specific persons don't know how, haven't been "trained," and haven't practiced it...

Of course, you're free to you believe what you will.

First and foremost...I never said, or(in my mind) implied, any specific person in my earlier post. Especially not you. And, I don't understand why you would think that I was talking about you?

I had no particular "two people" in mind that I thought might have the training and skills that would make me feel comfortable RO'ing. I'm certainly not one of them. In fact, you are about the only person that I know of that has taken such training. (And, I stated that I am sure there are others.)

My opinion is base on my experiences and knowledge (be that what it may). I stated it flatly. I stand by it.

[mactiger]

There are several things to keep in mind when considering transitions:

We consider an empty, unloaded gun a "safe" gun, but we generally don't require people to "speed unload" during a course of fire. However, we also consider a loaded, safety-applied gun, when properly held, or holstered, at least "moderately" safe. We NEVER allow the muzzle to point uprange--at least per the rules. Putting one down in a a "safe" condition, is considered OK, per the rules, as long as certain safety conditions are met.

My main concern with transitions is with the direction of the muzzle. If it's pointed in a safe direction, and by that I mean if it goes off, the round won't leave the range, I'm OK, as long as it's either empty (unloaded) or loaded, safety on. Fact is, though, I've never seen one go off all by itself, so once it's grounded safely, it's probably going to be OK, whether there is someone there watching it or not. With slinging the weapon, I'm not so sure, but I'll admit that I haven't ever seen it done during a course or otherwise, and surely not by someone who practices it. I think one of the main differences in people that shoot 3 Gun is whether they shoot mostly USPSA matches, or whether they go the tactical route, or both. I think the tactical folks use different techniques and have a slightly different mindset than the strict USPSA folks. I only have match experiences and conversations to draw on, though, so my scope may be limited.

Rhino, I'd have to see someone slinging one hot to be able to consider whether it's a safe thing or not. I'm like Flex$--I've never seen anyone do it, and the guys I normally shoot with don't do it, so I have absolutely no basis for comparison.

Jeff, I think it's fine if the gun is grounded somehow--I like barrels or tables--but I don't necessarily see the need for an RO to watch it. But, if you consider it a crucial safety item, by all means, continue. I do have one question, though--you refered to baffles on your range, but unless I'm mistaken, those are for skip or bounced rounds, not AD's that go into the atmosphere, right?

At any rate, I think the board is still, er, debating the issue, so we'll have to see. I did write a few of the board members last night and give them some suggestions relative to the multi-gun rule, and how to handle one when you transition. They may tell me to sit down and shut up, but WTH, I get told that a lot.

Troy

[rhino]

First and foremost...I never said, or(in my mind) implied, any specific person in my earlier post. Especially not you. And, I don't understand why you would think that I was talking about you?

Well, it's a close one here ... I did see my name/userid and thus it was natural to infer that I would be included in "...all pretty much newbies." as from the quote below:

I've shot the 3-gun Michigan state match last year at Barrettone's club, I've shot a number of the 3-gun matches in Ohio, and I have a bit of a feel for the Indiana shooters that Rhino hangs with. I gotta say...we are all pretty much newbies. I'm sure they are out there, but I don't know of two shooters in all of the three states that I would feel comfortable RO'ing while they transitioned a hot gun to a sling.

So it still kinda looks to me that I was at the very least included in a group of people who are 1) "newbies" to 3-gun; and 2) incapable of safely dropping a rifle to a sling safely. But I could be wrong.

I had no particular "two people" in mind that I thought might have the training and skills that would make me feel comfortable RO'ing.  I'm certainly not one of them.  In fact, you are about the only person that I know of that has taken such training.  (And, I stated that I am sure there are others.)

Fair enough . . . so if I get it now, I think you're saying that anyone you see is pretty much an unknown quantity, regardless of they really can or can't do. If you don't know them for sure, you can't predict it and thus you would not be comfortable ROing them under such circumstances. If that's the case, then I think it's a lot more reasonable and I'd have to agree with you.

My opinion is base on my experiences and knowledge (be that what it may).  I stated it flatly.  I stand by it.

In retrospect, I really can't dispute that.

Now . . . show me the love . . . SHOW ME THE LOVE!

[rhino]

Rhino, I'd have to see someone slinging one hot to be able to consider whether it's a safe thing or not. I'm like Flex$--I've never seen anyone do it, and the guys I normally shoot with don't do it, so I have absolutely no basis for comparison.

Yeah, that's reasonable. With Flex's clarification and your comments, I would have to agree on case by case basis. I'll have to give this more thought, but I still agree with the points KurtM has made.

Come to think of it, I only know of one other person on this forum (JimStC) that I know for a fact can safely drop his rifle on his sling and transition to his handgun. I've watched him do it, done it beside him at the same time, and even done some brief "team" things with him against 3-D moving target simulators.

So everyone else is pretty much a ??? ... although, in addition to some of the names mentioned earlier, I'll bet Mr. Strader (among others) can probably do it without too much of a sweat.

We gotta get more of you guys in some of the defense-oriented shooting classes!

Troy ... you also make a good point about perspective ... it's pretty obvious that the people who are advocating transitions using the sling are from a more "tactical" or defense oriented mindset, whereas the other side seems to be coming from a more purely competition point of view. Both sides are making some very important points. Hopefully we can work something out that makes everyone happy, but methinks USPSA will definitely gravitate toward disallowing transitions using the sling.

Of course, that still leaves all the other organizations and their rules . . .

[Barrettone]

Troy,

When I say baffles, I mean BAFFLES. Up in our neck of the woods, the neighbors got a little uppity, and took us to court. We got a consent judgement to operate provided we installed baffle systems approved by the NRA on all ranges. These things are covering the ENTIRE SHOOTING AREA!!! You can't shoot one into the atmosphere when you are under them. They are designed to stop anything up to 30.06!!! There are pros and cons to these contraptions. The upside is that rounds CANNOT escape the range, you have shade on those hot July days (when our tournament is), and you can secure uprights and stretch filter cloth for your vision barriers in any configuration imaginable, and it is lightweight (nice advantage when dealing with walls). The down side is, that you have limited lateral and uprange movement, as you can only operate under them during a COF. Some of our systems are HUGE though!!! If you came up here and saw them, they would blow your mind. FLEX has seen them, and knows what I'm talking about!!! It cost us a small fortune to erect them, but such is the cost when operating a range in suburbia. You need to see it to believe it. Put the Area 5 3 Gun match on your calendar if you can, and get your rear up here...you won't be dissappointed. Alright, I'm waaaaaay off topic here...gotta close.

Jeff

[Nik Habicht]

I'll chime in here with a couple of thoughts in no particular order. My three-gunning experience is limited to having shot the last three Old Bridge Tactical Challenge matches and one USPSA style three gun match at another club. I've worked as an R.O./Squad Leader at the last two Tactical Challenges. All of these matches had multigun stages with transitions. The USPSA style one provided places to ground a gun AND required that it be empty when grounded. They managed this on one stage by having you load 8 rounds only in a shotgun --- one round for each of eight poppers. Reloads were not permitted. You could, if I recollect correctly engage any poppers still standing, after grounding your shotgun and transitioning to an unloaded handgun. On the other stage you started with a hot pistol, and it was shooters option whether to clear the pistol manually, or whether to drop the mag while engaging the last paper pistol target --- think Bang, drop mag, Bang, Ground. Then retrieve and load a rifle and engage the rifle targets. There was no significant movement on either of the two stages --- max was one step in either direction.

At the Tactical Challenge matches at Old Bridge, whenever transitioning from the long gun to the pistol, there was a requirement to have the long gun unloaded. This was usually (and preferrably) accomplished by sending the last round into a target to clear the chamber. If a gun was found to be loaded at the end of the stage --- Match DQ. To the best of my knowledge no one was DQd for leaving ammo in a long gun....

It's possible to manage these transitions safely. I'd strongly prefer to only see one gun hot at a time. I could live with USPSA adopting a grounding of guns policy --- but I'd want the guns to be CLEARED by the shooter, and I'd like there to be a provision for the shooter to shoot the gun empty in a safe direction.

As far as slinging an empty long gun goes --- most tactical slings have the muzzle pointing diagonally down toward the shooters weakhand side. This means that the muzzle would be pointing uprange a couple of feet if the shooter had to turn to his weak side to engage targets.

Another random thought --- tactical three-gun matches that typically permit the slinging and carrying of a long gun, usually do not allow handguns to be carried in a race holster.....

Stage design is crucial. The one DQ I've personally witnessed ocurred when a left-handed shotgunner broke the 180 while coming out of a port. While I'm not going to make excuses for the competitor, I never would have predicted that the competitor would turn the gun in that direction --- but as a lefty, it was a natural motion for that shooter.....

[warpspeed]

Back to JFD'd orginal question -

The only 3 gun match I've been to had a couple of multi gun stages. Both started with a pistol and went to a shotgun or rifle. Stage description was very clear, pistol must have an empty chamber and either empty mag or empty magwell ( no mag in gun). Gun was placed on table, facing towards berm, and long arm then picked up to finish stage. From my point of view, it was very safe.

[kurtm]

Barrettone:

I understand your concerns. I do agree that our sport has a great safety record....Even matches that don't us the august USPSA rules. SOF ran a 3-gun match for 22 years with no mishapes and on EVERY stage you were REQUIERED to carry your pistol, LOADED if desired so if the old long gun quite this world you could TRANSITION to your pistol to continue. Many of the courses of fire required retaining a long gun as you compleated the COF, and using it to hit a stop plate at the end. The only requierment of the shooters was to sign a form that said I believe I can safely do these types of things. Once again, NO mishaps in 22 years!! Gives one a reference to ponder from doesn't it. KURTM

[TonyH]

I've been reading this thread for the last couple of days enjoying the discussion. If I may put my two cents in. I have been to many 3-Gun shoots over the years & have seen so many unsafe speed unloads, on multi-gun stages. From the AD when someone thought the gun was empty, to last shot over the berm, to not unloading the weapon its self. Some resulted in DQ's some did not. This form of making the gun safe is not what we want. I see from some of the post, there are several good ideas. The best in my opinion is the drum at the 45 degree angle & long gun on safe with a range officer watching over it. What would you do for a hot pistol left behind instead of the long gun? A RO needs to there watching to ensure that while the shooter is forward of his safe, possibly loaded, grounded weapon, no one else advances trying to get a head start scoring or taping targets until the shooter & his RO's have returned to do so. This may slow these types of stages more than they are now.

[TonyH]

Another thought that may have been addressed, but not sure. What about preloading of the on deck shooter? Some RO's do & some don't, all multi-gun stages need to have a preload area to help speed the stage up. We don't need stages thrown out because we can't get eveyone thru, like has happen in other matches.

BTW Flex-$, I'm from Indiana lol.............

[mactiger]

I'm all for a pre-load area, especially for shotgun stages, where loading the tube can take a while. Generally what I've done in the past is set up a spot pointing into the side berm, and had the competitor (under RO supervision), load the tube but not the chamber, then ground the shotgun, safety on, on the table. It helps the RO's manage the stage timing considerably. It does take an extra RO, though, so if manning is a problem, you might have to pick and choose what stages you'll do this on.

Jeff: I have to admit that I've never seen baffles like you describe--sounds like a good deal, though.

One thing to remember in all of this discussion is that safety is always a concern, whether the match is USPSA, tactical, whatever. Managing the risk, and what is considered an acceptable risk, are generally the key words when talking safety with anybody. Like I said earlier, grounding the gun is generally considered safe within USPSA. Tactical shooters like the sling, and it can probably be done safely by many of them. I know I couldn't do it, because I've never even seen it done. Maybe someone will show me at the next 3 Gun I go to.

One last comment: I've seen several people talk about only allowing "X" number of rounds loaded. Just be aware that this is not legal per USPSA rules: see 8.1.4.

This can be addressed through course design, though. I like to put a couple less targets than the max capacity allowed for the gun, so that it's not a real time burner or problem to just shoot it empty (if an empty gun is what you are looking for). Just remember not to shoot your own equipment in the "unloading" process. Dust and .223 brass flying around the inside of a bunker looks impressive, but is not conducive to reliable functioning of the rifle in there. Plus, it comes out looking way uglier than it did when it went in....

Troy

[Barrettone]

The reason that I said that I felt an RO should stay with the grounded weapon is two-fold. First, as Tony said, you want to keep all competitors uprange of the weapon until it is cleared. Second, combo stages are a bear to officiate in the beginning of the day, as we are not accustomed to having to clear two weapons. I can't tell you how many times I have called "range clear" and went to take a step downrange when my assistant game ME the STOP command!!! It was him being there that kept me from advancing downrange. After you run a couple of shooters, you get in a groove, but old habits die hard. Stationary RO's probably would have it easier, but since combos were pretty much just done at the local level in our area, there was a learning curve. It is just good practice to have an RO per gun so that they can be the ones to insure that it is cleared...putting it on one RO is a bit much. Additionally, as we all know, everybody always wants to push the envelope with course design. Someday, you will get a three gun combo stage...now you really have a nightmare there for a singular RO. Hope this clarifies my point.

Jeff