gose Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Just my .02 , It's great the sponser $$ they bring , but I'd MUCH rather see the top shooters/along with a few avg.shooters , shooting some actual stages . The fact that Rustin made in was nice to see , but other than that , it's just a time delay/filler until the final scores. I really liked the random drawing for the prize , I was in the tent helping, if you coulda seen the guys who were drawn early winning some stuff they likley would NEVER have a chance at ,would probably draw more new shooters than any ad campain or TV show. Still need a good way to recognise the top shooters , but many of the top guys don't need or want the rifles that most others only dream of. Kinda like the difference between me getting $5.00 for the candy store or my 3 year old Grand Daughter . Sure it's nice for me , but for her it's beyond anything she thought possible. The problem with shooting "real" stages is that its really hard to design good stages that are fast to reset and have good spectator value. I'm sure the current format can be tweaked some, but probably not much. I also agree that having one slot (or maybe even two?) in the shoot-off filled by random drawing amongst the shooters that are watching the shoot-off could be one way to draw more spectators. Though, its not really fair to the shooter(s) that just missed the shoot-off because the spot was used for random drawing instead... I still think that the prizes should be distributed by place of finish though. It awards the skilled shooters that spend a lot of time and money to get good, after all, it is a competition. If we need to use raffles with nice rifles to lure new shooters to the sport we really need to take a step back and look at how to make the sport and matches more interesting... Edited September 12, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap3 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) The winners posted here are a bit incorrect It was actualy Karaoke group division: Mike (Love Shack) Cyrus Karaoke soloist division: Jesse Tischauer Karaoke get off the statge division: Albert Pilkington and Mike Chambers Great stages that were fun and challenging, RO and range master were great and other than logistic problems that I am sure will be corrected next year it was a really good match Edited September 12, 2011 by ap3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap3 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Enjoyed the match and especially shooting with all the great guys on Squad 19. Thanks to all the folks who put in lots of work to make it happen. I had to leave after my last stage so I got all my info on the scoring and prize table debacle second-hand; very sorry to see an otherwise good match end on such a sour not Saw the e-mail note from Misty - I really hope the scores get sorted out and posted at some point (even stage scores would be better than nothing for an interim solution). The scoring issue does beg the question - how were the 3Gun Nation shoot-off folks selected if final scores couldn't be computed?? After talking with a lot of other shooters, I sense the vast majority simply don't care for the 3Gun Nation Shoot-off in it's current form. While fun to watch and a great incentive for the upper-tier shooters, the Shoot-off represents nothing more than a mandatory depature delay for 95% of competitors - most of whom have a long drive ahead of them following the prize table. Aside from the occasional dark-horse (congrats to Rustin!), it's usually no great surprise who'll be in the shoot-off. I have never been to a 3gun match that the prize table was delayed by 3gun nation! If we are going to be a true sport we have to support the vehicle that will get us there I will never play pro football but I enjoy watching the competition and I will never be in a shoot off yet I enjoy watching the competition I would much rather see Daniel Horner earning a million a year as a professional shooter than some football player who goes on strike because he didn't make ten million Edited September 12, 2011 by ap3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Potato Head Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 thats nice, Jesse; but wheres video of that barn burner finish on the team event? lol! Great finish Mike. I dont mean to be a buzzkill on the team shoot, but since when did they start making the competitors ground a safe gun? Ive talked to several shoot off competitors who said they always just put it down. When I shot it at BRM3G two years ago, it was just "ground the gun". Watch all the previous shootoffs and you dont seem to see the guns going on safe. I may be wrong, but I thought it was a crappy call. yeah, but I didnt care; I made sure that my other two teammates knew it was just one of those things that happens, and that is was an honor just to get to shoot with them, and to actually shoot and hit steel was reward in itself! Apparently those Stag Arms techwear shirts come in extra long sizes and have a horeshoe sewn into the back bottom of them. Here is the Team Shoot Off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD9mw4VR0RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Edited September 12, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular. I forgot to add that I did really enjoy the orange flagging in the trees on the shotgun plates in the woods. Much better and easier to find than previous years. We also had RO's that called hits on plates that spun sideways and or all the way around backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Potato Head Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... I would have to say it would fall under Sportsmanship and Conduct. So if should hve been addressed. And seeing as it happened 4 times (that is on video), it was obviously not addressed. The 3 Gun Nation delay and jacked up scoring programs dont burn people as bad as seeing the "winners" have an unfair advantage or help from their buddies. Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular. I forgot to add that I did really enjoy the orange flagging in the trees on the shotgun plates in the woods. Much better and easier to find than previous years. We also had RO's that called hits on plates that spun sideways and or all the way around backwards. I dont really care what the ROs do, since I assume they're consistent across all shooters, but coaching by other shooters is definitely not allowed in all outlaw matches. It seemed to be ok in this match though. Edited September 12, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Potato Head Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular. I forgot to add that I did really enjoy the orange flagging in the trees on the shotgun plates in the woods. Much better and easier to find than previous years. We also had RO's that called hits on plates that spun sideways and or all the way around backwards. I dont really care what the ROs do, since I assume they're consistent across all shooters, but coaching by other shooters is definitely not allowed in all outlaw matches. It seemed to be ok in this match though, so why not do it The sport is me vs. You. Not me vs. You and your friends. Clearly unsportsmen like conduct. Just because the rest of the city is involved in a riot, that doesnt mean I am going to go pick out a new TV to carry out of Wally World. I guess some people just know the difference between right and wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Ya it wasn't allowed at Larue last year for sure...but if it's allowed, then there is no reason not to utilize it...in many cases, it speeds up long range stages for shooters who might be struggling (like me ) I'd hardly call it unsportsmanlike conduct....maybe if it wasn't allowed but someone did it then i'd qualify it as such...but not if it's allowed Edited September 12, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 The sport is me vs. You. Not me vs. You and your friends. Clearly unsportsmen like conduct. Just because the rest of the city is involved in a riot, that doesnt mean I am going to go pick out a new TV to carry out of Wally World. I guess some people just know the difference between right and wrong Some matches allow it, some discourage it and in some it's a DQ. It's only right or wrong depending on how the rules are written. I dont really care which one it is, as long as the rules are enforced equally for all shooters. If coaching was deemed to be ok for this match, I dont really see a problem doing it, just like no one would complain about coaching at Iron Man. However, do it at SMM3G for example, and you're in trouble... Sometimes it would be nice to have one rule book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular. I forgot to add that I did really enjoy the orange flagging in the trees on the shotgun plates in the woods. Much better and easier to find than previous years. We also had RO's that called hits on plates that spun sideways and or all the way around backwards. I dont really care what the ROs do, since I assume they're consistent across all shooters, but coaching by other shooters is definitely not allowed in all outlaw matches. It seemed to be ok in this match though, so why not do it The sport is me vs. You. Not me vs. You and your friends. Clearly unsportsmen like conduct. Just because the rest of the city is involved in a riot, that doesnt mean I am going to go pick out a new TV to carry out of Wally World. I guess some people just know the difference between right and wrong Unsportman like conduct for following the rules? Come on man! Well since we don't have a clue who you are I am gonna take your opinions with a grain of salt. If your gonna call me or my friends a cheater why don't you use your real name or at least put it in your profile. I can't stand it when people jump on forums and talk crap on people while they hide behind an avatar and a childrens game for a screen name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular. Wrong, wrong and wrong. Superstition, Blue Ridge and Rocky Mountain all have written rules prohibiting such. Most of us understand what "Individual sport" means and play it as such. While the ROs may have coached your squad, they certainly did not do so for all squads. Guess your squad needs asterisks next to the scores since they were not really yours then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Jesse, I don't think anyone is calling you a cheater. Maybe unartful expresion of frustration that your squad was given (by and at the fault of ROs) an unfair advantage. That you took it does not make you anything less. However, if you had significant coaching as opposed to the guy or gal right below you who did not receive such, you can certainly understand their frustration. If you blew by a target and got a FTE and then the next competitor, the RO called them back and essentially erased their mistake, you would be lit up...admit that and maybe this can go to something constuctive like how to get ROs to be more consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Our RO's coached us on several stages. Coaching is only dissallowed in the USPSA rule book. Yet another reason why Outlaw is more popular. Wrong, wrong and wrong. Superstition, Blue Ridge and Rocky Mountain all have written rules prohibiting such. Most of us understand what "Individual sport" means and play it as such. While the ROs may have coached your squad, they certainly did not do so for all squads. Guess your squad needs asterisks next to the scores since they were not really yours then? Maybe your squad didn't need coaching like ours due to the fact that ours was full of crappy shooters. You should put an asteriks next to our scores. Oh wait there aren't any scores are there so it doesn't really matter if I would have shot the enire match for my buddy instead. I can only assume the RO's are consitent in helping everyone have an enjoyable match. I know when I RO I treat everyone that is shooting the same. Edited September 12, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Was coaching mentioned in the rules? Apparently not, if the ROs did not call foul on these videos, and we depend on them to know the rules. If Jesse thought it was some form of cheating, he would not have posted the videos for scrutiny. I personally have never known it to be allowed for a shooter to coach another shooter. If you needed coaching when you passed a plate, you may finish at the top, but it was a team effort. This is not a team sport so the whole team effort thing screws with the results. Just my view of the world. Nice video though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Potato Head Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assaulter Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Here's my long-winded take on things. Positives- Great communication BEFORE the match. Great stages, great RO's. I liked the ipsc style flash targets and the large shotgun knockovers were fun. I feel like I shot the best match that I've ever shot and I had a great time doing it. I liked that, for the most part, the targets were presented well and not hard to see, for ALL shooters. Shootoffs- They get pretty boring with the same people. I had no idea when the shootoffs started. If an announcement was made or the time was posted somewhere, I totally missed it. Why don't they get the shootoffs started with a random group of 6 or 8 shooters from the match and make the winner of that shootoff the wildcard to go up against the top guys. That would get me in the crowd EVERY time and I'd be sure not to miss it. Negatives- Kirk is a great guy and on a personal level I can empathize with his position. I can only imagine how bad he feels about how this turned out. He put countless hours/days of his time preparing for this match that he could have been spending with his family and this is not what he intended the outcome to be. He has my forgiveness and I'll be there next year. BUT, I still don't understand how this was even a possibility. The program should have been tested re-tested and a redundant system should have been in place. A better solution for the prize table was offered but ignored. Pick one stage (that everyone shot) at random and make that the order of finish. It's not perfect but it would have been the MOST fair by at least awarding prizes by performance. I'm also sure there was time to score some of the smaller divisions. Another gripe is the prize table. People want to see what's on the table. BRM3G this year was a perfect example of how to run a prize table. I hate seeing black bags on the table with no clue what's inside. I worked hard and spent a lot of money to walk the table and honestly I want to get the best item I can. The last impression is a lasting one. It's only fair to the sponsors too. My contest- This is not meant to be mean spirited so don't take it the wrong way. I'm trying to take a bad experience and be able to laugh at it. I think I finished in the 20's-30's somewhere, maybe higher or a little lower. I walked away with a 30 round magazine, 2 boxes of american eagle ammo, a Hornady sticker, and two samples of gun oil from Brownells. That's like $20 worth of stuff. If you think you placed higher than me and got a SMALLER prize. Post it and I'll ship you my magazine, a sticker, and some lube (can't ship the ammo). Rant off- I feel much better. Kirk hang in there, I still had a good time and that's what counts. See you at Ozark next year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Was coaching mentioned in the rules? Apparently not, if the ROs did not call foul on these videos, and we depend on them to know the rules. That is the whole point. This was not competitors coaching, it was the ROs themselves. When an RO purposefully interjects himself into altering the outcome other than for saftey issues...WRONG! I'm going to give the competitor the benefit of the doubt, they would rather get the score they shot and deserve, not something else. After checking scores, one competitor went into stats and showed them they forgot to enter a miss in his score. Interesting enough, same division, same stage, maybe even the same target. It is not the competitor's fault that the RO was helping him, but it is wrong nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Was coaching mentioned in the rules? Apparently not, if the ROs did not call foul on these videos, and we depend on them to know the rules. That is the whole point. This was not competitors coaching, it was the ROs themselves. When an RO purposefully interjects himself into altering the outcome other than for saftey issues...WRONG! I'm going to give the competitor the benefit of the doubt, they would rather get the score they shot and deserve, not something else. After checking scores, one competitor went into stats and showed them they forgot to enter a miss in his score. Interesting enough, same division, same stage, maybe even the same target. It is not the competitor's fault that the RO was helping him, but it is wrong nonetheless. I just talked to the shooter and he never heard the RO or the other guys that coached him. Turns out he was wearing double plugs. Saving those targets for the end was his game plan. Edited September 12, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I just talked to the shooter and he never heard the RO or the other guys that coached him. Turns out he was wearing double plugs. Saving those targets for the end was his game plan. Now that is just making it worse. Watch stage 9, RO tells him he left one, he stops, comes back and shoots it...now you want me to beleive the video is wrong...done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Now that is just making it worse. Watch stage 9, RO tells him he left one, he stops, comes back and shoots it...now you want me to beleive the video is wrong...done here. I want you to realize that I was joking. I was gonna share some videos of Kalani Laker and Rustin Bernskoetter tearing it up but it turns out on stage one somebody off camera told Kalani his shoe was untied after the standby call was given by the RO and Rustin had an RO help him fix his belt while he was making ready. I would hate to have you guys think two guys in the 3 Gun Nation shootoffs were cheaters. Edited September 12, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Andersen Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Guys I dont want to argue but since I am in that video I do want to comment. Jesse calling out a couple of plates in the woods were simply a case of him trying to help a friend within the rules of the match whose shotgun shooting/loading plan he was not aware of. I am only hearing half of what was said for the first time watching this video (Keep in mind he is 30 feet or more behind me half the time and I was double plugged). What I did hear was more of a distraction than anything, as those plates were simply in a different place in my plan than his. The only plate that I had brought to my attention that I had missed in the match was called out by the RO on the stage. I want to congratulate James Casanova for a win in Tac Irons in this match and a trip to is first 3 Gun Nation Shoot Off in this match! Great shooting man! I also want to comment on what a class act Pat Kelly was at this match. I was displeased with the order we were drawn for the prize table and offered him my prize rifle knowing that he had beaten me in the match and I went to the table before him and he refused to hear of it. Edited September 12, 2011 by Chris_Andersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap3 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Wow... Had I known coaching was legal, I would have brought someone to call out target locations for me... Kinda like in the video posted above (@1:35, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:49).... I would have to say it would fall under Sportsmanship and Conduct. So if should hve been addressed. And seeing as it happened 4 times (that is on video), it was obviously not addressed. The 3 Gun Nation delay and jacked up scoring programs dont burn people as bad as seeing the "winners" have an unfair advantage or help from their buddies. Though it would have been a DQ-able offense (assuming that the coach is a shooter) in most matches, there's nothing explicitly in the rules for _this_ match against it. Once again, 3 gun nation did not delay the scoring I was in Jesse squad shot a plate that turned sideways and the RO reminds me it needed to fall. On another occasion when I had to go back for a rifle target that was among a sea of rifle targets the RO told me 3rd from the left. Doesn't seem like unsportmanlike conduct or cheating but two RO's committed to shooters. Please put asterik by name as I am honored to be a part of the squad that played by the rules and excelled as shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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