Skydiver Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If a shooter starts a match declaring that they are shooting in Production division, but due to some misplaced grip tape they get to bumped to Open as per 6.2.5.1. I ask because 6.2.3 talks about "declared Division", whereas other parts of the rule book say "relevant Division". Do they still need to comply with their old "declared Division"? Or did the RM implicitly declare a new division for the shooter when he moved them to Open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Do they still need to comply with their old "declared Division"? No. After the bump they only have to satisfy the requirements for Open division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 As I read things, 5.1.7 prevents them from tacking on a C-More sight despite being bumped to Open. Or would it be okay as long as they as the RM under 5.1.8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I dont see why he couldnt pop a cmore on there. Likewise, a glock production shooter has too much tape and gets bumped to Open. He happens to have his Open glock mags in his bag. He should be able to use them now that he is shooting in Open, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 The Open glock mags are okay. That's what got me to discover the difference between the the "declared Division" and "relevant Division" verbiage, and led to me posting this question. For magazines, as long as they comply with the "relevant Division", they are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) As I read 5.2.5.3, this rule will also prevent a shooter bumped to Open from adjusting their mag pouch positions, holsters, or replacing pouches and holsters. [Corrected the rule number.] Edited February 18, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Why wouldnt adding a cmore be ok then? It would comply with the new relevant division (after a bump to Open) (Side note: Im really looking forward to the RO class this weekend. I have a funny feeling Im in to learn a bunch!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 From my reading of the rules: For why not the cmore: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. ... For why not move/change pouches, holsters: 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. Or do people who get bumped to open get a free pass to do some changes to sights, pouches, holsters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 As i look at that rule (again, no official RO traingin yet) it would seem that "5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match..." would mean you cant randomly switch gun midmatch while competing in a given division. likewise with the gear: once you set it up, you run with it. I would ASSUME that when you get bumped to Open the game gets changed a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 The way it was explained in our class, getting bumped to open doesn't give you a free pass. The rest of the rules still apply, including the ones quoted above (5.1.7 and 5.2.5.3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intel6 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 At the 2009 Area 2 I had issues with my open gun and rather than messing with it I just finised the match with my 6" limited gun. I borrowed a .40 170mm mag so I could at least try to salvage what I could in the match. Since I was already in open I didn't have to follow the limited rules even though I was shooting a limited gun. Neal in AZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. I agree with the sights, but I was under the impression that 5.2.5.3 related to competitors moving equipment to gain an advantage on a particular stage (ie, moving mag pouches from the front to the side before a stage where you have to go prone). I don't see why someone bumped from Production to Open couldn't move their pouches forward. They're certainly not gaining an advantage over the Open shooters who already have their equipment in that position. Of course, this is all dependant on the person not being bumped until after they'd shot a stage. If you got bumped prior to starting your first stage, I'd think you could modify whatever you wanted (remaining Open legal, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 The way it was explained in our class, getting bumped to open doesn't give you a free pass. The rest of the rules still apply, including the ones quoted above (5.1.7 and 5.2.5.3) This is exactly right. If you start as Production, but are PENALIZED for breaking the division rules and are bumped to Open you then compete in the Open division with your production equipment. You have to use them same Production mags, no changing sights, etc. It's better than being DQ'd for breaking division rules. If this happens to a shooter they are supposed to take their lumps and learn from it, but at least they get to keep shooting the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny7 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Why would this bump you to open and not to limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) 1. Because that's what the rules say. 2. Because USPSA isn't here to help you make the best of a bad situation. If you don't want to be shooting open, don't break the rules. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Edited February 19, 2011 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I dont see why he couldnt pop a cmore on there. Likewise, a glock production shooter has too much tape and gets bumped to Open. He happens to have his Open glock mags in his bag. He should be able to use them now that he is shooting in Open, correct? Corey, see this: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. No switching from irons to optics during the match.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 The way it was explained in our class, getting bumped to open doesn't give you a free pass. The rest of the rules still apply, including the ones quoted above (5.1.7 and 5.2.5.3) This is exactly right. If you start as Production, but are PENALIZED for breaking the division rules and are bumped to Open you then compete in the Open division with your production equipment. You have to use them same Production mags, no changing sights, etc. It's better than being DQ'd for breaking division rules. If this happens to a shooter they are supposed to take their lumps and learn from it, but at least they get to keep shooting the match. Steven, you're right on everything but the mags part. Shooters may use any magazine that complies with Open Division rules after the bump, including borrowed mags.... It was amusing to listen to the ROs after a shooter had been bumped from L-10 to Open at the 2003 Factory Gun Nationals -- the ROs on the following stages expected him to still be shooting in L10, and were surprised when he fired twenty rounds or so between reloads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewiston Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) The way it was explained in our class, getting bumped to open doesn't give you a free pass. The rest of the rules still apply, including the ones quoted above (5.1.7 and 5.2.5.3) This is exactly right. If you start as Production, but are PENALIZED for breaking the division rules and are bumped to Open you then compete in the Open division with your production equipment. You have to use them same Production mags, no changing sights, etc. It's better than being DQ'd for breaking division rules. If this happens to a shooter they are supposed to take their lumps and learn from it, but at least they get to keep shooting the match. Well said. Edited February 19, 2011 by Lewiston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Just got back from my RO class and specifically asked Troy this exact scenario. As for the mounting a C-more, it would a RM decision whether to allow it or not. As for mags, capacity, pouch location, etc it was Troy's interpretation that if you get bumped to Open, you only have to suffice the Open division rules. Load the mags up fully if you want. If you brought your bigsticks (have to be Open legal of course) go ahead and use them. Want your pouches up front for easier loads...move them. You merely have to comply with the division you are shooting...which is Open, not Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just got back from my RO class and specifically asked Troy this exact scenario. As for the mounting a C-more, it would a RM decision whether to allow it or not. It is my position that Troy was incorrect about that. The Range Master does not have the discretion to approve a substitute handgun unless the "... original handgun and/or sights become unservicable or unsafe during a match ..." A bump to open is not a judgment about the safety or servicability of your firearm. See Rule 5.1.7. As for mags, capacity, pouch location, etc it was Troy's interpretation that if you get bumped to Open, you only have to suffice the Open division rules. Load the mags up fully if you want. If you brought your bigsticks (have to be Open legal of course) go ahead and use them. Want your pouches up front for easier loads...move them. You merely have to comply with the division you are shooting...which is Open, not Production. This is also wrong and you've already been told why. It is a violation of the rules to reconfigure your rig in the middle of a match. Either one of these would be grounds for a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, as I see it. There are very few instances where I'd issue such a DQ, but this is precisely the type of conduct for which that rule exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Got a reply from John Amidon about this situation: "If a competitor is moved to open, their scores shot with an inappropriate piece or location of equipment, gets moved to open division, they have put themselves in a penalty situation already unless they shot all A’s but probably a lot slower. They would need to follow the guide lines of 5.1.7 to change equipment, but optics higher capacity are all part of open, so if the RM rules it is OK as the equipment meets open division, no harm, no foul. John" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Got a reply from John Amidon about this situation: "If a competitor is moved to open, their scores shot with an inappropriate piece or location of equipment, gets moved to open division, they have put themselves in a penalty situation already unless they shot all A's but probably a lot slower. They would need to follow the guide lines of 5.1.7 to change equipment, but optics higher capacity are all part of open, so if the RM rules it is OK as the equipment meets open division, no harm, no foul. John" Did you ask a follow up question about 5.2.5.3 and changing equipment position? [i'm in Devil's Advocate mode. :-) So that people don't feel like I'm trying to trap anyone, I'm trying to figure out to how this works in relation with 6.2.5.1: You are not allowed to have some equipment to that doesn't comply with the the division requirements "during a course of fire" (6.2.5.1), but now you are allowed to adjust your equipment "during a match" (5.2.5.3). Does "during" mean two different things?] Edited February 21, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Did you ask a follow up question about 5.2.5.3 and changing equipment position? [i'm in Devil's Advocate mode. :-) So that people don't feel like I'm trying to trap anyone, I'm trying to figure out to how this works in relation with 6.2.5.1: You are not allowed to have some equipment to that doesn't comply with the the division requirements "during a course of fire" (6.2.5.1), but now you are allowed to adjust your equipment "during a match" (5.2.5.3). Does "during" mean two different things?] Because after the move you're now in a different division with different requirements/allowances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I would say the mags are good to go. I can shoot the match with any legal mag I choose to. I Could walk out and shoot limited with 10 rounds if I want, factory length extended, as long as it fits the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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