Multi-gun Courses

[ErikW]

I ran into benos at the SMM3G and when he asked me how it was going I whined about the PITA factor of multi-gun stages. (You know, set up your belt differently for each stage... memorize two or three strategies... deal with unloading... deal with staging guns... more time.... lower hit factor.)

TGO was there and he said he preferred one gun per stage. I know a lot of people want to run as many guns as possible as much as possible. I know a lot of people want to use long guns exclusively. What do you think?

[Patrick Sweeney]

You missed my choice: "One gun at a time, with occasional two-gun stages." But I've bowed to our club members wishes, despite doing three gun since 1982 or so: we now do almost all multi-gun stages. I won't quit, but it is more work.

[ErikW]

That would be the "mix it up" option.

[rtr]

At my club the 3-gun matches have been permanantely changed to 2-gun matches (shotgun and rifle). Reason being that there is a pistol match within an hour if not 2 virtually every weekend. In fact I've never shot a real 3gun match, but 2gun I think is great, gives me a chance to play with my non-handgun toys. I guess I prefer to have each stage involve just one weapon, we usually have one long range rifle only stage, at least one shotgun only stage, and a combo stage with short rifle and shotgun.

[Nik Habicht]

Erik,

my only three-gun experience is with the tactical matches that Old Bridge runs each year. Belt set-up is pretty easy --- you're expected to carry your pistol, pistol mags and rifle mags on each stage. You're usually required to carry the specified long gun for the stage as well, in addition to your pistol. Your shotgun gear you can put on and take off as necessary. On the one three-gun stage I can remember from last year's match, you started shooting six rounds of rifle, cleared and left the rifle on a table, muzzle facing into side berm, shot a bunch of pistol rounds while moving down range, and finally recovered your shotgun from the last firing position to engage a bunch of shotgun targets from either side of a vision barrier. I prefer the challenges of shooting multiple guns in a single stage, pistol shooting gets interesting when there's an AR or SG hanging off your chest....

....but good stage design has got to be there as well....

[George]

Personally, I would be fine with "All 3, All The Time" but that isn't realistic, so a mix it up approach is the best option I can see. IMHO 3gun means multi-gun stages in proper proportion to some dedicated weapon courses. I don't mind all single gun matches, but IMO well done multi-gun is just plain more fun.

--

Regards,

[rhino]

I like 'em all, but multiple gun stages are a lot more fun. I can see why it would be a pain for open shooters, but for me it's just an extension of my every day carry setup. All I have to do is add a couple of rifle mag carriers to my belt or throw my shoulder bag on, then strap on my shelt belt around my middle and I'm ready to rock.

My favorite thing of all is to transition from the long gun to the handgun, but without the nancy boy "grounding" of the long gun. Drop it on its sling or hold it in your off hand and go to town with your pistola, I say!

[warpspeed]

I like the multi gun stages - as long as they are set up with saftey in mind.

Not everyone is comfortable running a field course with a rifle or shotgun with a hot pistol in a 012. Or at least I'm not

[sahauptman]

I'm getting to the point where 3Gun should be Bolt rifle, Carbine and Shotgun.

In a tactical stand point, the only time you need a handgun is when you have exhausted all your long gun ammo.

[Nik Habicht]

I like the multi gun stages - as long as they are set up with saftey in mind.

Not everyone is comfortable running a field course with a rifle or shotgun with a hot pistol in a 012. Or at least I'm not

That's why most tactical 3 gun matches won't allow you to use a race holster...

[Jim Norman]

3-Gun Rig

A drop leg or a Blade-tech type pistol holster. Mag Pouches you can crawl in the mud with an swing from your knees with. (Same goes for the holster, If you can't do a somersault without fearr of losing your pisol, it ain't 3-gun)

A good sling for th rifle, depending upon the match you may need a sling for the shotgun as well. You should be able to carry at least two spare rifle mags and probably around 30 additional rounds of Shotgun, plus what ever the gun holds.

3-Gun is fun, but ral 3-gun, where you reholster a hot pistol or draw and engage targets with your pistol while still controlling a loaded rifle is not a beginner sport. You need to have totally internalized safe gun handling.

Good 3-gun stages are something like a USPSA stage, but with twists thrown in. Can you hit a stationary clay from the backseat of a moving van? Can you hit both a 10 yard and a 300+ yard rifle target while shooting from a "roll-over" prone? on the same stage? How about a tight "House stage" but run it with a shotgun or a carbine.

Fun, Fun Fun

Jim

[mike4045]

Shot my first 3 gun match on over a year a couple of weeks ago. It dragged on all day. The reason I quit shooting them last time. I got so frustrated and wanted to leave after a couple of multi gun stages. I think we finished somewhere around 3 pm with a squad still shooting. Too long and drawn out for my taste.

Using all 3 guns on one stage was just too much trouble the way it was setup. A 223 in a 20+ mph crosswind was not much fun either.

I picked up my Benelli today for shooting 3 gun with and am already thinking about trading it for something I will use.

Mike

[Jim Norman]

Sounds a bit like you had a range management problem. But you did indicate that you were dine by 3PM. I always figured that all day was supposed to be the norm. We run 40-75 shooters through our regular pistol match, set-up 7AM, first shot 10AM, tear-down when you're done shooting the last stage and we are ususlly done by 4-4:30PM.

We ran a 12 stage 2 day match last year. 6 stages each day, first shot at 10 on Saturday, done about 4, first shot about 9 on Sunday, picked up and put away the entire match by a little after 4PM.

Most stages you are required to carry your rifle and your pistol. or your shotgun and your pistol. If only the pistol will be used, some matches allow you to leave your rifle on your cart.

Remember there are 3-gun matches and there are multi-gun tournaments and then there are multi-gun stages. A 3 gun Tournament is simply a pistol match, a rifle match and a shotgun match, minimum of two stages of each. seperate matches, aggregate score. A 3-Gun Match is a match where you shoot mostly multi-gun stages and generally you are required to use "Duty" type gear. You need to be able to hang upside down and not lose your pistol or mags. A match with a multi-gun stage is more like a standard USPSA pistol match, but you can use any gear that fis the division you are shooting in.

As for a 20 mile wind, thats life. We are limited to only 100 yards at our range, so we use innovative stage design. Also the long distance stages tend to slow a match, unless you have sufficent auto set or flash type targets.

Given the oppurtunity to shoot 3-gun, I'd almost always go for it over a pistol only match.

[PacMan]

Multigun stage is always fun and challenging. If the match allows for hot holstering or "hot box" where you can ground your weapon, it would surely beats the "empty weapon or you're DQ'd" ordeal and discourage people from letting loose the last round.

[kellyn]

Not all stages should be multigun but there should be a good mix of it. Having to manage 2 or 3 different weapon systems in a stage is part of the challenge of 3 gunning.

I prefer the weapon to be empty when abandoned. I also think an assistant RO should clear abandoned weapons ASAP even while the shooter is still shooting the stage, as long as it's safe, hence the need for hot boxes or containers pointed into the berm. That's will make the stage move must faster. Weapons often get knocked about so I don't favor leaving hot guns. (one shooter at Stage 3 SMM3G caught his unloaded rifle with a sling on his shotgun when he grabbed the shotgun and sent the rifle tumbling with the muzzle pointed uprange AT ME! I'm glad it was unloaded! FYI Don't have slings on your stuff unless you have to.)

On the other hand, I don't know the problem that people have with unloading their guns. Just load a couple of extra rounds than the stage requires and send them all into the last target. I'm sometimes astonished at all the gyrations that people do to unload their guns, particularly pistols.

[PacMan]

Just load a couple of extra rounds than the stage requires and send them all into the last target.

Exactly just that, empty it at the target, not as it is being laid down on the table. Simplest thing to do but as it is being gamed out by the "big guns", the last round got thrown about at the berm. We saw a few rounds impacted at the upper part of the berm on Stage 7.

Surprisingly, there were alot of rifles and shotguns with slings although the match description specifically said sling not required. I guess it is not "tactical" unless you have a slingy

[Jim Norman]

If you are shooting a 3-gun as opposed to 3 one gun matches you need a sling on the rifle. Most matches don't require one on the SG. Unless you are using what has been refered to as a "Hot Box" what do you do with the rifle when you transition? If there are 3 guns on a stage, then the long guns are generally grounded, at least the first one.

One must realize the difference bertween USPSA 3-gun tournament 3-GUn, Multi-gun stages at a USPSA match and a 3-gun "Tactical" match. They run by different rules and have different stratagies to compete in them.

Jim

[Overkill]

What I'd like to see are stages where you start with the long gun with a fixed number of rounds. The beginning of the stage would offer difficult and/or disappearing targets for the long gun. When the long gun ammo gets exhausted the shooter would be required to sling the empty long gun and close to pistol range to finish the targets. Failure to enguage penalties would apply to any targets not shot or enguaged with the pistol. You may have to reduce the value of the hits made with the pistol to keep the gamers from wasting the long gun rounds so that they can advance quickly and enguage with the pistol.

[kurtm]

I think a 300 yard sprint would kill me, let alone Todd Salmon. Finish with a pistol?? You can bet I would watch my rifle/carbine round carefully KURTM

[rhino]

For most of us, the closest thing to "realistic" would be to start downrange at close to contact distance, then engage with pistol as you withdraw/back up.

When you get to where you foolishly left your rifle behind, you holster, retrieve the rifle, and go to town on the bad guys if they didn't get you first.

[Jim Norman]

What I'd like to see are stages where you start with the long gun with a fixed number of rounds. The beginning of the stage would offer difficult and/or disappearing targets for the long gun. When the long gun ammo gets exhausted the shooter would be required to sling the empty long gun and close to pistol range to finish the targets. Failure to enguage penalties would apply to any targets not shot or enguaged with the pistol. You may have to reduce the value of the hits made with the pistol to keep the gamers from wasting the long gun rounds so that they can advance quickly and enguage with the pistol.

There are a couple of ways to accomplish this.

You can load ONLY a certain number of rounds, when the rifle is empty, you sling and go forward. The pistol targets can be the same or you can use different targets for pistol now the gamer is screwed, at least regarding dumping rifle rounds to hit later with pistol. When the shooter gets to the end of the stage, at Unload & Show Clear, a round in the the Long gun is a Match (Tournament) DQ.

There is no need reduce the value if you use separate targets. We did this on several stages at our last match, particularly the Car. You had a loaded pistol in the glovebox, and a loaded rifle on the back seat. You shot the 5 pistol targets with two rounds each, emptying your pistol, you put it back in the glove box and then engaged the 4 "Flash" Targets from inside the car, then exited and shot them over the hood, the roof and the trunk.

Worked fine.

Jim