Checking targets during a Standards CoF

[mhs]

Clearly it's February. Realistically, I think the odds of me seeing a GM card arrive in the mail in 2011, are higher than the chances of encountering this scenario on the range....

I'm guessing that we've both seen equally, or even less likely things happen on the COF.

If the RO said anything beyond "If you are finished return to the box" or at least something giving the competitor the option of continuing, I think a reshoot is reasonable.

[mhs]

My point being that shooters are not free to roam around wherever and whenever. The rule book does not support that behavior.

During the COF it does.

[sperman]

I can't find "stay in the box" listed anywhere in 8.3

[ima45dv8]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

There is no Make Ready command for the second string. After the first string is complete the RO will require you to reholster. If the next string is from the same box, you would only hear "Are you ready....Standby....BEEP".

Curtis

Be careful, Curtis. There is no published standard for what is or isn't said at the end of string one (or subsequent strings) of a Standards CoF. Recommendations...yes.

I often give a "Make Ready" at the start of subsequent strings to allow the competitor a chance to take a sight picture.

[ima45dv8]

Oh, and to add even more chaos into the mix, let's say the following happens on a Virginia Count standards stage that does not patch targets between strings.

String 1:

"Make Ready". "Are you ready?" "Standby." "Beep".

I shoot the string, and then bust out of the box and run up to the target.

At the target, I realize there in a miss on one or more targets.

I holster my gun, turn back up range and walk to the next start position.

"If you are finished, prepare for your next string."

I make ready for the next string.

String 2:

"Are you ready?" "Standby."

Before the beep, I go ahead and draw.

An RO should call "Stop", note a "false start", and prepare me to restart as per 8.3.4.1.

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

So does the phrase "once the course of fire has been restored" mean that targets need to be re-patched? Common sense says no, but it's not spelled out. With it not spelled out, can this be abused by the shooter to effect a reshoot (since by patching the targets, now there will be insufficient entries in the scoresheet)? Or is it simply unsportsmanlike conduct to try to effect a reshoot and therefore a DQ (ala deliberately removing eye/ear protection)?

If you didn't fire a shot, no need to tape the targets. My task as an RO is to determine an accurate representation of the shooter's attempt at the course of fire (I think I read that somewhere...). You would just get another "AYR?".

Now if you did fire a shot, we'd have to reset the stage since string one hadn't yet been scored and an accurate respresentation of your attempt at the course of fire couldn't be determined. Start over at string one.

[ima45dv8]

So let's take that a little further. I fire my shots, and without warning bust out running full speed towards the targets. As an RO, can you stop me? Not unless I commit a DQ-able offense.

It may be a bit extreme, but if you told the shooter not to run away from you, and he continues to do so, isn't that a DQ'able offense? It's a bit of a chicken and the egg. You can't stop the shooter unless you are going to DQ them, but you can't issue the stop command until they've committed a DQ-able offense.

I know it's not a legal range command, but if you tell the shooter not to proceed downrange, and they do so, can you DQ them?

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

This is the groundwork for a successful Arbitration. What is the "reasonable" direction by an RO? Can an RO decide to stop you from stepping out of the box, as in foot-faulting, in a CoF. No. He can dump penalties on you, but can't stop you from hosing your score. So you're going to tell an Arb committee that because it was a Standards CoF it's okay to limit the competitor's movement? I think the result would be a reshoot.

[ima45dv8]

So the RO sees me heading downrange and says something along the lines of, "Hey! Stop. What are you doing? Come back here and get ready for string two!"

As long as I don't proceed downrange, I could claim that I wasn't done with my attempt at string one and the RO interfered. Even if I do continue downrage, the RO trying to DQ me for not complying with what he thought was a "reasonable command" is going to likely be met with an arbitration...."Why is gaming a Standards any different than a Long Course? Why can't I go outside the lines in a Standards when I can in a Long Course? Apply the relevant penalties, if any, but you can't stop me."

Sticky wicket.

Reshoot.

If there's a lesson here, it's not to get rattled by odd competitor behavior. Jumping to a Stop situation could result in the exact reshoot that person was hoping for.

Sound familiar? There was a very similar incident at last year's Nationals disussed here that closely parallels what we're talking about.

==========

IF you ever meet up with someone trying this stuff, do what John (Singlestack) suggested earlier tonight. As soon as they step out and head downrange, say "Stop -- Reshoot". Disarm the bomb right away. Give the reshoot right then and there. Do it as many times as they try it.

If they continue trying that tactic, just point out that their squadmates are probably getting very pissed off resetting those targets for no good reason. Peer pressure can be very effective.

[sperman]

Mark,

I like your last suggestion. I would like to add that I'm not necessarily advocating any position, just trying to work through the possibilities.

Having said that...

8.3.5 "Stop" Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

I don't see anything in 8.3.5 that says "Stop" is automatic grounds for a re-shoot.

Let's walk through a couple of scenarios using El Prez.

Scenario 1: The competitor fires 6 shots and then begins to walk downrange toward the targets. The RO yells "Stop" and the competitor continues. The RO DQ's the competitor for failing to follow reasonable range commands. Are you going to argue that "Stop" isn't a reasonable command?

Scenario 2: The competitor fires 6 shots and then begins to walk downrange toward the targets. The RO yells "Stop". The competitor stops, and says "I wasn't done with the string." The RO knows it's BS, because it's was 20 seconds into a 4 second string, but issues the re-shoot anyway. Is this fair to the other competitors?

Edited February 5, 2011 by sperman

[BayouSlide]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

There is no Make Ready command for the second string. After the first string is complete the RO will require you to reholster. If the next string is from the same box, you would only hear "Are you ready....Standby....BEEP".

Curtis

Be careful, Curtis. There is no published standard for what is or isn't said at the end of string one (or subsequent strings) of a Standards CoF. Recommendations...yes.

I often give a "Make Ready" at the start of subsequent strings to allow the competitor a chance to take a sight picture.

Point taken. I will normally say "Reload as required then holster" before the "Are you ready". This is my standard approach which I believe is in keeping with the rules per 8.3.6.1. As we seen noted elsewhere in this thread, straying from established range commands can sometimes raise unanticipated problems. I personally am not comfortable with a second "Make Ready" but have had shooters ask whether they can take a sight picture, usually before I get to "Are you ready", and of course affirm that they can.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos! and to add a point or two

Edited February 5, 2011 by BayouSlide

[steel1212]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro. Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

[colt]

As RO I say stay in the box and they ignore it I am going to repeat myself and if then ignored the situation has changed.

Something tells me when Coach give the 2nd repeat. The shooters going to take notice!!! And maybe wet is pants

Brent

[mhs]

The RO knows it's BS, because it's was 20 seconds into a 4 second string, but issues the re-shoot anyway. Is this fair to the other competitors

Not fair, which is why the RO shouldn't say "stop". It's on the RO.

[mhs]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro. Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

Again, what rule supports you telling them "no"?

[BayouSlide]

Deleted post here 'cause I messed up in trying to add a previous response and reposted in error...I should DQ myself from the rest of the discussion for accidental discharge posting.

Curtis

Edited February 5, 2011 by BayouSlide

[ima45dv8]

Mark,

I like your last suggestion. I would like to add that I'm not necessarily advocating any position, just trying to work through the possibilities.

Having said that...

8.3.5 "Stop" – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from the Range Officer.

I don't see anything in 8.3.5 that says "Stop" is automatic grounds for a re-shoot.

Let's walk through a couple of scenarios using El Prez.

Scenario 1: The competitor fires 6 shots and then begins to walk downrange toward the targets. The RO yells "Stop" and the competitor continues. The RO DQ's the competitor for failing to follow reasonable range commands. Are you going to argue that "Stop" isn't a reasonable command?

Scenario 2: The competitor fires 6 shots and then begins to walk downrange toward the targets. The RO yells "Stop". The competitor stops, and says "I wasn't done with the string." The RO knows it's BS, because it's was 20 seconds into a 4 second string, but issues the re-shoot anyway. Is this fair to the other competitors?

Scenario 1: I agree that "Stop" is a reasonable command....based on competitor actions. If the competitor had committed any of the offenses listed in Section 10, or had violated a previously published Forbidden Action, then "Stop" is an acceptable emmision from the RO and should be obeyed. If they didn't commit a DQ offense, there's no reason to sound off. If they've actually done something worthy of a DQ, not responding to the RO's "Stop" is at worst, a subsequent offense, but not the base cause for the DQ

If on the other hand, all the shooter did was push the RO out of their comfort zone, because the RO didn't expect that action it's not grounds for a DQ. Penalties maybe, based on what happens next, but not an automatic DQ.

We accept and even anticipate people going "outside the lines" in other courses of fire. That's normal. Just because a competitor did it when we didn't expect it in a Standards might be alarming, but not prohibited by the rulebook (that I can see).

Scenario 2: No, not necessarily fair to the other competitors, but also not grounds for a DQ. That's when you invoke John's strategy and call for a reshoot right away. Do it often enough with the same competitor and his buddies will make the point better than we can.

[ima45dv8]

Oh, man just wait until the classifier next weekend. I want someone videoing the RO's face when I take off after the first string.

That's exactly what I was thinking!

I checked and this Sunday's classifier is "Six", so no chance to do it this time.

[sperman]

Scenario 2: No, not necessarily fair to the other competitors, but also not grounds for a DQ. That's when you invoke John's strategy and call for a reshoot right away. Do it often enough with the same competitor and his buddies will make the point better than we can.

Let's say competitor Z reads this thread tonight. He shows up at the match tomorrow, with you as his RO on a VC classifier. He knows he has a no-shoot Mike on the first string, and starts walking downrange knowing that you (or John) would issue a Stop-Reshoot.

I didn't mean to insinuate that Scenario 2 was a DQ, just not fair to everyone.

Edited February 5, 2011 by sperman

[ima45dv8]

Scenario 2: No, not necessarily fair to the other competitors, but also not grounds for a DQ. That's when you invoke John's strategy and call for a reshoot right away. Do it often enough with the same competitor and his buddies will make the point better than we can.

Let's say competitor Z reads this thread tonight. He shows up at the match tomorrow, with you as his RO on a VC classifier. He knows he has a no-shoot Mike on the first string, and starts walking downrange knowing that you (or John) would issue a Stop-Reshoot.

I might just as likely follow him and not say a word until or if he does something requiring me to stop him.

If I'm prepared in advance for this sort of silly action, and this thread as well as the one from the nationals have hopefully prepared my mind, I hope not to utter a single word.

Just because he goes looking for a reshoot doesn't mean he'll get one. As the RO I have cards to play in that hand, too.

There's the lesson...

[steel1212]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro. Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

Again, what rule supports you telling them "no"?

I'll write it in the web if I was to have this at a level 1. Im like nic I would never have it a bigger match for the reasons listed. The shooterthat wants to do this any way is being disrespectful to the other shooters by dragging down a stag on targets that mean nothing since you have already shot them. Its just silly in my opinion and since I can't post a "rule" you guys will just have to do what you want since you will anyway have fun! :-)

[Coach]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro. Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

No but I am a ruler follower who does what he is told. (at least with the rules I agree with)

[steel1212]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro. Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

No but I am a ruler follower who does what he is told. (at least with the rules I agree with)

I hear yeah I guess my club would just never see a stage like this because I know one of them is reading it and would want to test me lol.

[ima45dv8]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro.

The rule (10.6.1) says "....failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official,..."

That's where we could open the door to a successful arbitration. It's not a "reasonable direction" to tell someone they can't fault a line. That's not a DQ. There are already penalties enumerated for that. Likewise, if someone goes out of the lines on a Standards course of fire, there may be penalties, but I can't see that as a DQ.

Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

If I considered it, I sure as Hell wouldn't ask first.

[Skydiver]

LOL! We are being so negative. :-)

As the RO, why not offer a pair of binoculars to the shooter after they shoot each string so that they don't have to walk all the way down to the targets? Or would that be against 8.6?

[Gary Stevens]

Just score between strings. Problem solved.

[Skydiver]

I still say that if shooters are allowed to check targets on a 50 yard standard and you as a ro tell them no and they do it any way you send them packing for not follow the direction of the ro. Anybody want to try it with out asking the ro at a major.

Again, what rule supports you telling them "no"?

I'll write it in the web if I was to have this at a level 1. Im like nic I would never have it a bigger match for the reasons listed. The shooterthat wants to do this any way is being disrespectful to the other shooters by dragging down a stag on targets that mean nothing since you have already shot them. Its just silly in my opinion and since I can't post a "rule" you guys will just have to do what you want since you will anyway have fun! :-)

Actually, the targets do mean something if it is a comstock scoring and the shooter would know to make up the shot on the next string. But then considering that the only way to get strings is by making the stage a Classifier or a Stardard Exercise, and that these types of courses must be scored Virginia Count or Fixed Time, there is really no advantage because shooter will have to fire extra shots and stack shots, both of which incur procedural penalties. They'll just dig themselves even deeper into the penalty hole.