Mag changes production vs. open/limited

[sincityshooter]

Ok, after watching how fast TT and TJ can perform mag changes on just about anything out there, I wanted to see what the mortals think.

After competing in open for many years and having a big funnel on the bottom of the gun, it was common for me to reload consistently right around 1 sec and on a good day I could break .9. Now 6 yrs later after being semi retired, I decided to get back into the game with a production gun (XDm). Holy crap, what a pain! I now find that more often than not, I miss the mag opening and before you know it I'm in the mid 2's for my reload. Even my best right now are in the 1.5 sec area and although my mag release and getting the new mag is very smooth and fast, getting it in the magwell is an entirely different issue. Is this normal? Can I expect my reloads to be a half second slower? I learned yesterday that I take my eyes off the magwell too early... I guess too many years of relying on the funnel mag well did me in.

[alpha-charlie]

I shoot Production exclusively and practice reloads just about everyday. I can hit a reload in 1 second without pushing it too hard. Try it with your eyes closed to really get the motion down, it's pretty cool when you can do them just as fast while blind as a bat. It's a perishable skill like any other part of shooting, it'll come back to ya with a butt load of practice. Good Luck!!

[sincityshooter]

Thanks, what part of Chicago are you from?

[alpha-charlie]

Far southwest side

[Chris Keen]

I'll second what Alpha-Charlie said ....... it is a perishable skill. So not only have you taken a little time off, but you switched platforms on yourself. You just need to get a little more dryfire / practice in and you should be ok. But you will notice that you still need to "pause" for a split second right before inserting the mag. Look it all the way in with your eyes. Max Michele says he does all his dry-fire at 50% speed, because you may not be using correct techniques during dryfire, and not even be aware of it. What's the point of doing your practice at warp speed if youre doing it wrong?

[sincityshooter]

After doing some dry fire drills, I realized that with an open gun there isn't much to it, anywhere close gets the magazine in the gun. I also found out that I have a tendency to look towards the target right before the magazine gets to the gun.

So, I've messed with two techniques trying to decide on which one to go with.

The first is similiar to Max Michel keeping the gun up at eye level.

Pros: Head stays steady and next target is in view if doing a standing reload

Cons: For me, keeping the gun up that high gives me more time to get the magazine going to the magwell at a higher rate of speed, which isn't a good thing. It's tough to slow down for a fraction of a second when the magazine gets close to the magwell.

The second method is bringing it down, with elbow in ribs, with the gun almost at the same spot the weak hand meets it during a draw.

Pros: The mag is closer to the magwell, not much issue with the speed of it trying to enter the magwell. Since the gun is lower, there's more time to get a good support hand grip when pushing the gun out to target

Cons: My head wants to move, looking down, which results in more of a turtle head/shoulders after the mag change. Another words, instead of my eyes looking down, I bring my chin down.

I'm trying to get the basics strong and working on my posture/head position is important. I like the natural head shoulders position as opposed to the tank/turtle look.

What does everyone think?

[Flexmoney]

Just follow through on the LOOK...you and your body will figure it out from there.

[Chris Keen]

I dont like the lower style of reloading where you have to drop / lower your head to accomplish the task, then raise your head again to re-acquire the target. You gotta keep your head up, or IMO you're just killing time with all that up and down head action going on. Especially in Prod. where unlike open & Limited you'll tend to perform 3 times as many magazine change. Keep your eyes fixed on the mag during the mag change, but don't drop your head. It should still be up, facing the next target or position, and the gun should be up at eye level. Practice & learn to do the mag changes better without over-running the mag into the gun.

I believe Steve Anderson used to advocate doing dry-fire reloads where you don't completely finish the reload. You begin your mag-change practices as usual, but when reachin for the fresh mag, and inserting it in the mag well, you STOP. You DO NOT insert the mag into the gun, but stop with the tip of the mag just inside the magwell opening. That will help you to form a visual picture, or mental image of that PAUSE that you need to take right before the reload (with a Prod. / SS gun) happens. You also form a mental image of what the proper angle for reloading that gun really looks like to your minds eye. And hopefully, after you do a million dryfire mag changes like this, you wont have any problem hitting that reload without lowering your head.

Hope that helps.

[Bouttime]

Just got my Production gun this week, I shoot Limited 10 also. I practice alot with my eyes close. This helps to build muscle memory. But with the eyes open you still have to look the magazine into the mag well.

I learn this from fly fishing at night. I use to throw 65 to 75 feet of line and now I can throw 85 to 90 feet of line, in the day time.

Chris I am going to try some of your suggestions. Keeping the head and arms up, facing the next target and not inserting the magazine in all the way.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Bouttime

[CZinSC]

Keep your eyes fixed on the mag during the mag change, but don't drop your head. It should still be up, facing the next target or position, and the gun should be up at eye level. Practice & learn to do the mag changes better without over-running the mag into the gun.

Definitely not disagreeing with you, just trying to understand what you are saying better. First, I always thought you were supposed to focus on the mag well, so you are saying to keep eyes on the mag? You also say keep your head up. How do you do this and keep eyes on the mag? Do you pick up the mag with your peripheral when it comes into range? I've been doing a lot of dry fire lately and practicing mag changes, and fumbling a lot. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[sincityshooter]

Keep your eyes fixed on the mag during the mag change, but don't drop your head. It should still be up, facing the next target or position, and the gun should be up at eye level. Practice & learn to do the mag changes better without over-running the mag into the gun.

Definitely not disagreeing with you, just trying to understand what you are saying better. First, I always thought you were supposed to focus on the mag well, so you are saying to keep eyes on the mag? You also say keep your head up. How do you do this and keep eyes on the mag? Do you pick up the mag with your peripheral when it comes into range? I've been doing a lot of dry fire lately and practicing mag changes, and fumbling a lot. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

You never need to look for your magazine, they are in the same place all the time. I believe me means keeping your eyes level and picking up the magazine 6" or so before the magwell and looking it into the gun, the target at this point will be blurry in the distance until the magazine is started into the gun at which point you acquire the next target/position with a better focus. Think of it as eyes on front sight, shot fired front sight lifts, eyes on magwell, eyes pick up magazine coming towards magwell, eyes focus on magazine entering magwell, eyes focus on target as magazine is fully inserted support hand regripping gun, gun pushes towards where you are looking, eyes come back to front sight and next shot is fired. All in .8-1.00 if things go right.

[sincityshooter]

I believe Steve Anderson used to advocate doing dry-fire reloads where you don't completely finish the reload. You begin your mag-change practices as usual, but when reachin for the fresh mag, and inserting it in the mag well, you STOP. You DO NOT insert the mag into the gun, but stop with the tip of the mag just inside the magwell opening. That will help you to form a visual picture, or mental image of that PAUSE that you need to take right before the reload (with a Prod. / SS gun) happens. You also form a mental image of what the proper angle for reloading that gun really looks like to your minds eye.

This makes sense. I've done millions of reloads, but only with open magwells. The motions are there already and muscle memory is in fully effect, but the precision of a production magwell is what I need to perfect. I'll start practicing this way and hopefully when things go wrong I'll be able to narrow it down to something small.

[Flexmoney]

Production reload. About a 1.25s Alpha to Alpha on El Prez (10y)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6477191684809913367#

[CocoBolo]

I practice over the back of the couch but the real practice is outside where they are done while moving just like the real thing. Maybe practice on a tread mill! I'm on the high line, and with practice you can get scary fast. The elbow in the ribs I don't think works as well especially when you are running across the stage. I shoot SS some times, lots of reloads.

[Corey]

keeping the gun up will save you time in the long run, especially in a division where you will be doing them a LOT. (I know the feeling, i shoot Single Stack ). Start out slow in dryfire and just work on getting the mag to the gun. As Chris said Steve Anderson is a big fan of that drill, as is Matt Burkett (Steve calls them "Burkett reloads" in his dryfire book). Work on getting the magazine into the magwell area of the gun, just dont complete the reload. Do that A BUNCH! go slow at first and work your speed back up. Things will come back to you with practice.

[Chris Keen]

Keep your eyes fixed on the mag during the mag change, but don't drop your head. It should still be up, facing the next target or position, and the gun should be up at eye level. Practice & learn to do the mag changes better without over-running the mag into the gun.

Definitely not disagreeing with you, just trying to understand what you are saying better. First, I always thought you were supposed to focus on the mag well, so you are saying to keep eyes on the mag? You also say keep your head up. How do you do this and keep eyes on the mag? Do you pick up the mag with your peripheral when it comes into range? I've been doing a lot of dry fire lately and practicing mag changes, and fumbling a lot. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I should have made that a little clear-er ...... yes you should focus on the magwell, not really the mag, while performing a reload. The hand will guide the mag up to the gun without much visual reference, but you need to "look it in". Which very basically means watch the mag go into the magwell, and since the mag is moving, it makes more sense to watch the magwell / opening of the gun.

"Head up" means exactly that. While holding your head level, and looking straight out in front of you, divert your eyes at a downward angle (approx. 45 degrees) while keeping your head where it was. You'll find that you can see quite a bit down in front of you, but it takes only a split second to re0direct your eyes back up and on to the target. Moving your whole head up and down takes maybe a second longer, but if you do that 3-4 times on each stage it adds up.

[Chris Keen]

keeping the gun up will save you time in the long run, especially in a division where you will be doing them a LOT. (I know the feeling, i shoot Single Stack ). Start out slow in dryfire and just work on getting the mag to the gun. As Chris said Steve Anderson is a big fan of that drill, as is Matt Burkett (Steve calls them "Burkett reloads" in his dryfire book). Work on getting the magazine into the magwell area of the gun, just dont complete the reload. Do that A BUNCH! go slow at first and work your speed back up. Things will come back to you with practice.

Now that you mention it, I do remember Steve calling them Burkett Reloads. My bad!

[CZinSC]

Thanks Chris, makes sense now. Basically what I was doing, but i was seating the mag in practice. I will go with the just get it in the magwell and stopping.

Thanks for the tip.

[Joe4d]

Coco bolo nailed it, ya gotta move. We are discussing standing reloads and practice but unless you shoot alot of standards, if you are doing a standign reload you probably screwed something up. Sure a sub one second reload looks cool, but how much does it really help your match time ? If I am reloading during movement that I have to do anyway, I guess a faster reload will translate to a faster movement and setup into the next position.

[jkatz44]

When I was excusivley shooting Production, I didn't really miss a reload.

This came with just dryfire. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

When I recently switched to Open, I became less aware. I started to become lazy because of the huge magwell. I tried to go to fast and I occasionally missed the reload. You need to SEE the magwell and GUIDE the magazine into the gun.

When I switched back to Production for just 1 week, I hit every reload. Since there is no magwell, it forced me to actually look the mag into the gun.

Edited February 4, 2011 by jkatz44

[jkatz44]

On the other hand...

This is how not to reload...

[pjb45]

I was traveling to CA for a couple of years. And not a bar-type guy, I would practice reloading my single stack in the hotel room for 5-15 a night. I got to be pretty smooth with them.

When I went back to shooting my limited gun, I notice a huge improvement in those reloads.

Then switching back to SS was relearning the precision SS needs v. Limited.

The extra precision needed going from easy to hard reloads requires the time to practice the reloading mechanics correctly.

In a class, Matt Burkett talked extensively about looking the mag into the gun. He suggested some people put a white mark in the mag well to get the eyes to focus on that spot and bring the mag to the spot. He talked about a slight pause as the mage gets very close to the mag well. Again both suggestions were to emphasize the importance of looking the mag into the mag well.

Mike Seeklander talks extensively about how you use your concious mind to train your subconcious mind. When your are in a match your subconcious mind is in control of your actions. All the suggestions mentioned are in an effort to train you subconcious mind to execute the correct 'program' during a match.

If it is any consolation, at the WSSSC, I saw five of the top GMs slightly bobble at least one reload during the match. TGO use to talk about how he practices draws and reload every night and over the last 25 years you can see just how smooth and fast he can do them.

[alpha-charlie]

keeping the gun up will save you time in the long run, especially in a division where you will be doing them a LOT. (I know the feeling, i shoot Single Stack ). Start out slow in dryfire and just work on getting the mag to the gun. As Chris said Steve Anderson is a big fan of that drill, as is Matt Burkett (Steve calls them "Burkett reloads" in his dryfire book). Work on getting the magazine into the magwell area of the gun, just dont complete the reload. Do that A BUNCH! go slow at first and work your speed back up. Things will come back to you with practice.

Now that you mention it, I do remember Steve calling them Burkett Reloads. My bad!

Anderson also recommends not starting with a mag in the gun. Using a timer to start just hit the mag release button and then do as described above. Anderson says this is to allow you to do more of these drills instead of having to stop and pick up an empty mag every time. It works, after 10 minutes you'll have performed 3 times as many reloads as you would have if you dropped and picked up a mag each time.

[sincityshooter]

Coco bolo nailed it, ya gotta move. We are discussing standing reloads and practice but unless you shoot alot of standards, if you are doing a standign reload you probably screwed something up. Sure a sub one second reload looks cool, but how much does it really help your match time ? If I am reloading during movement that I have to do anyway, I guess a faster reload will translate to a faster movement and setup into the next position.

If you watch the top shooters, TT and Max M. they will get the reload done before the first step upon moving.. it's almost a standing reload because they get this done so fast. Mag button is depressed, weight is shifting in direction of movement, and magazine is inserted prior to the foot touching the ground. In a perfect world, you can get your eyes on the next position and put everything you have into getting to that position instead of fumbling with a magazine.

My thoughts? If done correctly and efficiently, a moving reload is VERY close to a standing reload.

[CMV]

Coco bolo nailed it, ya gotta move. We are discussing standing reloads and practice but unless you shoot alot of standards, if you are doing a standign reload you probably screwed something up. Sure a sub one second reload looks cool, but how much does it really help your match time ? If I am reloading during movement that I have to do anyway, I guess a faster reload will translate to a faster movement and setup into the next position.

If you watch the top shooters, TT and Max M. they will get the reload done before the first step upon moving.. it's almost a standing reload because they get this done so fast. Mag button is depressed, weight is shifting in direction of movement, and magazine is inserted prior to the foot touching the ground. In a perfect world, you can get your eyes on the next position and put everything you have into getting to that position instead of fumbling with a magazine.

My thoughts? If done correctly and efficiently, a moving reload is VERY close to a standing reload.

Max and Travis talk about exactly that in their class. Your reload should be done as you begin to move and be completed by the end of your first step. (Havent quite mastered that yet but working on it)