Stlhead Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Not a new topic, but instead of polluting other threads or dredging up an old one it seems like a good time to try and figure out why heavy metal is not well represented at major matches. Instead of lamenting the lack of participation, I would like to know why it is that at smaller local matches there seems to be no shortage of people who want to shoot heavy metal, but at major matches not so much. If you do not shoot heavy metal why? Do you have the gear to shoot it if you wanted to? Do you shoot it at smaller local matches but not at larger matches? Thanks for your replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Too much on ammo cost. Dont want to buy a whole other set up for 308, 45, etc. I also like the competitiveness of TO. I think it is a tougher crowd to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I think its (TO) a bigger crowd to beat, not necessairily tougher. There are some damn good shooters in HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I think its (TO) a bigger crowd to beat, not necessairily tougher. There are some damn good shooters in HM. I didnt mean to insinuate they werent as good. Here is the difference. In HM, you wil have 3 or 4 stellar shooters. In TO, you will have 30....tougher division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) 1) Its twice as expensive ammo wise; I have a hard time justifying spending more money when the end result of putting holes in paper or hitting steel targets is relatively the same for the sake of the game. 2) The rules in it change the most frequently from match to match and year to year. If I end up getting a SCAR-H I would consider shooting it on occasion, but it wouldn't be my primary division to compete in. Edited January 28, 2011 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 -I dont have a 308 rifle. -The only pump 12 ga I have has too short of a barrel and not enough capacity for me to want to use it. I did use my Single Stack .45 in a 3gun match last year while shooting TO. Do I get cool points for that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 1) Its twice as expensive ammo wise; I have a hard time justifying spending more money when the end result of putting holes in paper or hitting steel targets is relatively the same for the sake of the game. 2) The rules in it change the most frequently from match to match and year to year. And they fragment it so much, Heavy Pump, Heavy Auto, Heavy Scope.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) This is a forum, so I'm thinking you're just asking for personal opinions on HM? There is a match coming up that states it will be fun for everyone to shoot together, to see how you stack up against each other, regardless of what gear you use. I totally agree with that, as long as it doesn't cost me 3 vacation days, $150 for room, $75 for gas, and $100+ for an entry fee. If I'm just out there to have some fun and shoot up against someone that has a scope, high cap mags, weenie ammo, and a screaming auto shotgun - I'll do that at a local match for 20 bucks and totally enjoy it. At the current $100 match, there are 100+ tac shooters, 15 or 20 open, and 6 or 7 each for iron and HM. I understand why there is 5 rifles on the prize table for open, 15 for tac, and 0-1 for iron and HM. I don't understand why you don't understand the low turnout for iron and HM. Put 3 rifles on the iron and HM tables, and VIOLA!, you'll have 15 shooters trying to win them. 2010 Mississippi State 3gun Championship advertised an M1a for HM. 17 HM's showed up. duh? An Area 3gun Championship match back in 09 had 50 or so tac's, 12 open, and the standard 5 or 6 irons and HM's. There was a rifle and part of a rifle on the open table, 5 or 6 rifles on the tac table, they gave a new FN shotgun to the guy that physically built the match (which was totally deserved!), and the iron and HM tables? a medium gun bag. duh? This is all about getting new/more shooters into iron and HM. The 1xo is building some numbers at some matches, however, most of those numbers are coming out of the shooters from other divisions. It's just moving numbers around. IMHO Edited January 28, 2011 by springy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Springy, so the reason you don't shoot heavy metal is because the prize table is not rich enough for you? I appreciate your observations, but would like to know why you choose to not shoot heavy metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Because I'm going to shoot irons. If more representation is wanted in irons and HM, the best way to draw people into those divisions is what is posted above. The only problem is that when 3GN tried to even the benefits, a lot of optics shooters weren't too happy about being marginalized. If I were shooting for prizes, I'd do the rational thing and throw on a scope. Not having good prizes drives a lot of the HM, Open, and TI shooters into TO. With my division win at the Mississippi 3-gun, I would have gotten a nicer prize had I been shooting my iron sighted rifle - in the tactical optics division. I'd rather place higher while shooting a more challenging platform than win more stuff. Edited January 28, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Keep the replies coming, the larger the sample size the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Springy, so the reason you don't shoot heavy metal is because the prize table is not rich enough for you? I appreciate your observations, but would like to know why you choose to not shoot heavy metal. I only shoot HM. I have no interest in shooting in a match with HM gear up against tac ops gear. As long as the matches have an HM division, I will enter regardless of prize table. But I don't think there are many that would shoot HM in a match with a gun rug for the top prize, when they could shoot tac, come in 9th place, and win an $800 rifle. For me personally, back in 65, when that mean little sob with the funny hat said: "this is your rifle", there is no way I would ever go shooting anything without my m1a. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 the prize table is not rich enough for you? This is a little "idea" that crops up from time to time, sorta meaning that we (all of us) should be just shooting for fun? I have lots of things that pop into my mind when I hear we should be shooting for fun: these are competitions, that cost 500+ dollars to attend, to me that means awards and/or prizes trophy only matches usually don't have waiting lists entry fees have broken $200. let's back the entry down to $35, do away with the prize table, shoot heads up, and just have fun. right? why do we go to the prize table in order of finish? Let's do away with all that stress and competition, and instead: run what you brung, have a good time just shooting your guns with friends, and everyone gets the same "gift". maybe something we could all use, like a desert camo pistol rug. and everyone will have a good time, and there will be a waiting list for next year's "Allegheny Mystery Mountain Gettogether". While I'm on my rant here, could someone tell my why they would put an AR lower on the HM table, and an m1a rifle on the tac table??? OK, rant off c-ya on the range IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Ammo is expensive, rules keep changing, no one else is shooting it, guns are heavier, etc, etc. It is a retro division, like single stack, like cowboy action shooting, etc, and retro divisions do not appeal to me. We could shoot 3gun with hand crossbow, blunderbuss, and Kentucky rifles too. I know lots of people like that sort of thing, and thats ok by me, it just isn't my cup of tea. When we get a lasers and masers and phasers division I'll probably shoot that. I know it odd to say from someone who only shoots production and disdains open, but I'm more interesting in what is practical rather then experimental so if I have to be honest about it I'll wait until the third version of the Marvin's the Martian laser pistol before I switch over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't shoot HM, because its hard, the prizes suck, the other competitors are lame, it costs too much??????, I can't decide which HM division to shoot in, and Pat Kelley keeps beating me!!!!! WARNING THREAD DRIFT WARNING!!!!!!!! The costs to much thing confuses me, how much difference is there between the ammo costs and the optic on your rifle????? the hi cap mags on your belt over SS mags, the benefit of really only NEEDING to shoot one round on a lot of paper for rifle and pistol????? percentage wise, 3-4 from 7 is like 40-60%, 30 from 150 is like 20%, so technically HM and TI have a tougher and larger field of good shooters to overcome, maybe thats one of the REAL reasons along with sucking more and still getting a better prize that folks shoot TO over HM or TI. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't shoot HM, because its hard, the prizes suck, the other competitors are lame, it costs too much??????, I can't decide which HM division to shoot in, and Pat Kelley keeps beating me!!!!! WARNING THREAD DRIFT WARNING!!!!!!!! The costs to much thing confuses me, how much difference is there between the ammo costs and the optic on your rifle????? the hi cap mags on your belt over SS mags, the benefit of really only NEEDING to shoot one round on a lot of paper for rifle and pistol????? percentage wise, 3-4 from 7 is like 40-60%, 30 from 150 is like 20%, so technically HM and TI have a tougher and larger field of good shooters to overcome, maybe thats one of the REAL reasons along with sucking more and still getting a better prize that folks shoot TO over HM or TI. Trapr springy, I vote that all those shooters that want to shoot for fun, leave the match after the last shot fired, think of the plethora of prizes that would be available for us prize pigs!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Fellow HM shooters- I enjoy your honesty. See you guys in April, big, loud guns and all. For anyone that doesn't think there is enough competition in HM, I invite you to shoot just one major match in our division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The costs to much thing confuses me, how much difference is there between the ammo costs and the optic on your rifle????? the hi cap mags on your belt over SS mags, the benefit of really only NEEDING to shoot one round on a lot of paper for rifle and pistol????? Optics aren't consumables; you can use the same optic for many years on many different guns after you've run the guns into the ground. Mags are consumables, but they generally last several hundred complete cycles before needing to be replaced. Both are much different than every shot fired being $0.80 vs $0.35 Why do you need to only shoot one per paper? Because the holes are big enough to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Look at the number of great shooters that left Limited to shoot Tactical.. for prizes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't have a pump gun, that's one reason. There are just too few 3 gun matches in the northeast, of what we have, they are confined to pistol bays and 50 yards is a long shot. It's almost like shooting Revolver or Single Stack...one or two shooters. My M1A needs to be unbuilt from Highpower configuration back to the SAK barrel and E2 stock with a comp, then I'll be able to have more fun with it. I'm sure I have enough M14 mags, and they all work. I've definately come to appreciate a longer sight radius on my pistols, and the rifle could only be better. One day, I'll play with the big bore guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) I understand the optic not being consumable but that doesn't explain why you can't shoot HM for one year or more??? besides how many optics do you own that you use for 3 gun???? .80cents is a high guess, at least for what I'm shooting, .50cents is the norm on my end, and thats for rifle for pistol its less and SG is the same. as for needing only one round a lot its because.............that stuff is expensive and I can be accurate, especially when targets are close. last major match, FB3G, match only not practice, 100-150 308, 125ish .45. even at .50cents for every round thats ONLY:112-137$$$$ total for ammo, the difference had I shot .223 and 9mm is miniscule. So yes even with a scope being nonconsumable, you could shoot HM easily, if ammo costs is really the primary deterrent. Those "reasons" sound more like "excuses" to me!!!, but I like shooting, its my only hobby right now so all my extra money goes to shooting, if you have other hobbies or a family thats cool spend your money on all of them, but realize that you shoot what you do because its what you want to do!! If you wanted to shoot Irons or HM, you would. Trapr Edited January 28, 2011 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Back in the day (before most outlaw rules had been established) I built a sub .308 caliber Major rifle. Then most big matches or outlaw rule sets established .308 minimum for HM. OK sure I can still shoot USPSA matches major, but I just lost interest in HM at that point. I understand why the .308 minimum, it was poor timing for me. I had all the stuff for TO at the time so thats what I ran with. Someday I'll find a deal on an M1A and I shoot HM some. I still think HM would be fun, but I have fun shooting the TO class also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The reason I don't shoot HM ALL THE TIME is because I tend to do what suits me with regard to hobbies. I shoot HM, Tac-op, and Limited too. The reason for not shooting HM certainly would NOT be lack of competition. If I had to list one reason I don't shoot it MORE it'd be the prize table thing. But you can't really expect the HM prize table to be large when the participation sucks as bad as it typically does. The MS 3-gun is a perfect example, couldn't even get 20 takers with the promise of a new M1A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Those "reasons" sound more like "excuses" to me!!!, but I like shooting, its my only hobby right now so all my extra money goes to shooting, if you have other hobbies or a family thats cool spend your money on all of them, but realize that you shoot what you do because its what you want to do!! If you wanted to shoot Irons or HM, you would. Trapr LOL...this is all I do for fun (and I have no family or significant financial obligations). The equipment inconsistencies bug me more than the ammo cost. Edited January 28, 2011 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I don't shoot Heavy Metal, because I DETEST pump shotguns!! Back when He Man was instituted It was a .308 rifle, a 45 with 10 rounds, and a 12 gage shotgun...thats it no other constraints. I know cause I was one of the 4 guys that helped come up with it, With Eddie Rohdes being the main guy behind it. I have all the stuff to shoot the division ( yes I own a Nova), and up untill some JERK changed the shotgun to pump only I shot it all the time....BTW...that "Jerk" was ME!! Everyone that activly shot that division wanted it to change to pump, and since they were the paying customer, I changed the rule...now I kick myself for doing it. After RM3G changed it everyone else followed suit and now look where we are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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