BlueOvalBruin Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Does anyone else prefer a loose slide to frame fit? A couple months ago I picked up a cheap LNIB springfield GI with a fairly loose slide to frame fit. I thought I would keep the frame for a .40 build and scrap the rest (bare frames are tough to come by in California). But as I started shooting it I loved how it handled. It cycles so much faster than my Dan Wesson PM7, which has a pretty tight fit. The GI is now my primary and I’ve taken all the good parts off the Dan Wesson and put them on the GI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 My 1911's are sloppy. My Glocks are sloppy. My AK is sloppy. I love them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Loose fits cover a multitude of sins. Namely poor quality and fitting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Right, but the question was, do you prefer a loose or tight fit in terms of the gun's dynamics while shooting? A tighter fit can be marginally more accurate (talking about slide/frame fit, not barrel/slide fit) but has a different feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Loose fitting slides recoil differently..... A tight slide feels like the recoil is lower. You'll also be able to tell if the slide fell on an empty chamber more easily than when the slide is sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 As long as they run and are accurate I don't care one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I have a Colt Gold Cup that is loose as all get out but the barrel locks up tight. Real tight. And it is a shooter. I do not mind a loose fitting slide but I would not say I prefer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Does anyone else prefer a loose slide to frame fit? A couple months ago I picked up a cheap LNIB springfield GI with a fairly loose slide to frame fit. I thought I would keep the frame for a .40 build and scrap the rest (bare frames are tough to come by in California). But as I started shooting it I loved how it handled. It cycles so much faster than my Dan Wesson PM7, which has a pretty tight fit. The GI is now my primary and I’ve taken all the good parts off the Dan Wesson and put them on the GI. Do the two guns have identical spring packages, firing pin stop geometry, hammers, struts, MS caps, and slide weights? If not, it may be more just a feel thing based on the differences, and not the fit of the slide. Slide speed is an often quoted, little understood, thing and the gun is going to cycle in nearly the same amount of time (something like .006) with any reasonable combination, that it's really outside the ability of human perception to pick up on differences....i.e was that .0055 or .006? I'll take a tighter fit as long as it's smooth....tight also keeps gunk out. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 all slides are loose, to some extent. I like em less loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 If it's over $2k & rattles, I'm intstantly turned off. I have felt sloppy, but I never owned one. When a $500 gun is loose like a GI, you can fit the frame to slide and change the fire controls, springs, hammer, barrel, safeties, sights, MSH parts, slide lightening, checkering accurizing, etc. $500 later, you have a custom Springfield that will embarrass a nighthawk or even Wilson. Being a Californian it's the only Way to build a custom 1911. We can't get caspian or sti SS frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Do the two guns have identical spring packages, firing pin stop geometry, hammers, struts, MS caps, and slide weights? If not, it may be more just a feel thing based on the differences, and not the fit of the slide. Slide speed is an often quoted, little understood, thing and the gun is going to cycle in nearly the same amount of time (something like .006) with any reasonable combination, that it's really outside the ability of human perception to pick up on differences....i.e was that .0055 or .006? I'll take a tighter fit as long as it's smooth....tight also keeps gunk out. R, Springs - Same Firing Pin stop geometry - GI one is loose hammers and struts - same MS caps - same slide weights - both stock full round top non-lightened slides (GI carbon steel, DW stainless), haven't measured slide weights to verify The GI has a Ti firing pin, don't know DW firing pin material A friend recently had his Les Baer NP3 coated and he thought the gun felt relatively sluggish afterwards. NP3 has a measureable thickness like any other electroless nickel Teflon finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1normando Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 No, a loose slide fit is not an advantage and indicates problems down-range sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I prefer it to be built correctly. Just because one has a tight slide to frame fit doesn't mean that it is right. The way the barrel lugs are fit and the barrel fit has more to do with accuracy than a tight slide to frame fit. Guns that you can barely break open when you get them are not set up right, a slide to frame fit should glide back and forth with ease and very little movement. The barrel needs to lock up and have no movement in the barrel hood when you press down on it. The bushing needs to be tight, but not to where you have to beat on a wrench to get it to come loose. Will a loose on shoot, yep, my dad has a national match that rattles when you shake it, shoots all day long. Will a tight gun shoot, yep, sure will, but will it stay fitted that tight? There are good guns, and guns that are good deals, and then there are the ones that are set up right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) Guns that you can barely break open when you get them are not set up right Some of the best 1911 builders might debate that with you. Brown's or Baers (ETA can't remember who started that term first) hard fit is a good example...super hard to get the slide moving, but once you do, it's smooth, and they don't stay that way long at all. R, Edited January 29, 2011 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 In my experience with hard fit 1911s - which I'll be the first to admit is limited to testing three Les Baers for articles, and also my own Wilson Defensive Combat Pistol was a hard fit gun, if everything inside the gun is as it should be, even when the gun is brand-new and you just about have to throw your shoulder out of joint breaking the action, the gun still works perfectly. It fires, ejects, feeds the next round, locks its slide open when empty. Everything. Of course in .45 ACP it feels like you're firing a .44 Magnum 1911 - I say that as someone who actually has fired a .44 Magnum 1911 - because with the action locked into a unit as it fires you're getting whacked with every last little bit of recoil. After about 100 rounds the "throw your shoulder out" effect starts to go away. After 500 rounds it's mostly gone. After 1,000 rounds the gun is smooth as silk. And then it just stays that way for tens of thousands of rounds. The average gun that started out "smooth" OTOH by that time would be a rattletrap. I am really curious about these guns that have loose slide-to-frame fits, and their barrels just rattle around in the barrel bushings, "But boy can it shoot!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I don't think you should have to shoot in a gun to break in the action like Daune is talking about. Sure make sure it functions and feeds the ammo you are shooting, but not shoot it in to finish the fit. The bank vault tight and shoot 1000 rounds is over kill. The Spingfield Professional model I had was tight, but didn't take pulling your arm out of if socket to break it open and it ran right from the box. The action was very tight, but smooth. The Nowlin I have was the same way from the box and I have put over 50K rounds thru it and it is still as tight as day one. Same with a Colt Special Combat. My Jim Anglin built limited gun was the same way, tight, but you could work the slide and I have 5 or 6k rounds in the last year thru it and it is still as tight and accurate as day one. I have a 70 series Colt that was built by Jack Best an AMU gunsmith as a hardball gun in the early 80's, it was my uncles and between him, my dad and me we have put well over 60K rounds and it is still as tight as the day he finished it for my uncle and will still do under two inch groups at 50 yard with hardball ammo. I just think that it is unnecessary to have to shoot a gun to finsh the fitting, it is more of a gimmick. A little more time on the bench and it should be good to go, especially for what we are paying for them. I am not saying that Brown and Baers are not good guns, they are, great guns and I would own either of them, but I am happy with what I got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shay1911 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Guns that are hard to open are due to tight barrel fit, not slide to frame fit. If the barrel is out of the gun, just frame and slide, and you cant slide them back and forth smoothly, then yes, its a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I have a friend who rebuilds engines and does some overhauls on them as well When he builds one that is badly out of spec(very loose) He has a standard answer....well...it wont run hot Excuses can be made for sloppy work...having it done right , requires none Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buck-boost Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 ...When a $500 gun is loose like a GI, you can fit the frame to slide and change the fire controls, springs, hammer, barrel, safeties, sights, MSH parts, slide lightening, checkering accurizing, etc. $500 later, you have a custom Springfield that will embarrass a nighthawk or even Wilson... Its hard to put back metal where there is none. I'm pricing out parts for a build, and spec'd out mostly wilson parts and have over 600 dollars in parts. Throwing 500 bucks at a 550 dollar gun most of the time equals a 1000 dollar gun. Not a 2000+ gun. Start out with junk and end up with junk. It is really hard to do it the other way around in a cost effective manner IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Your paying $1000 for a gun that rivals $2000 guns all day long. Is a mil spec frame & slide as bad you describe? Can just about anyone with a mill or surface grinder can fit your slide to frame as nice as bob, Ed, nighthawk etc. A little stoning, some work at the polishing wheel & 2000 grit, rubbing compound, qtips, a little elbow grease, some custom mill work & that poorly fit mil-spec now shoots 3" @ 50y, has high wide ambies, memorygrrove beavertail, flat topped, serrated, flared, French bordered, panel cut, SV trigger, brazos hammer, sear,spring disconnect, nowlin bbl n egw bushing vz grips, bomar, magwell, checkered msh. Done. For $250 more you get hard chrome. $1250 beats the snot out of anything your going to spend for $2600 before hardchrome from nighthawk. Or it's competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cletus9mm Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 not sure if anybody will prefer a "loose" fit over a "great" fit but in my opinion its all pretty relative. many custom builders quantify their frame to slide fit with a number like .001". i know what a tight $3000+ gun feels like and i also know what a "loose" gun feels like. what i do not know is what a gun with "x" amount of play feels like vs a gun with "y" amount of play. i would absolutely love to have a few guns with some measured runout to know what the different tolerances feel like. that being said im not aware of advantages of a loose fit. i believe i have read somewhere that properly fit tight guns are less prone to malfunction than improperly fit loose guns. keep in mind thought there are custom builders that build guns tight, or very tight. so tight that racking the slide is difficult to do for a grown man. in my opinion that is excessive but even those guns can function once you can manage to get a round in the chamber. when you grab onto a custom gun that is properly tight, there are few things that rival the feeling. you know you're holding quality, you know you're holding art. with a loose slide fit it detracts from that experience even if everything else is done right. just stating opinions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Your paying $1000 for a gun that rivals $2000 guns all day long. Is a mil spec frame & slide as bad you describe? Can just about anyone with a mill or surface grinder can fit your slide to frame as nice as bob, Ed, nighthawk etc. A little stoning, some work at the polishing wheel & 2000 grit, rubbing compound, qtips, a little elbow grease, some custom mill work & that poorly fit mil-spec now shoots 3" @ 50y, has high wide ambies, memorygrrove beavertail, flat topped, serrated, flared, French bordered, panel cut, SV trigger, brazos hammer, sear,spring disconnect, nowlin bbl n egw bushing vz grips, bomar, magwell, checkered msh. Done. For $250 more you get hard chrome. $1250 beats the snot out of anything your going to spend for $2600 before hardchrome from nighthawk. Or it's competitors. Step away from the pipe......The hallucinations will someday go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well, once again my question was more relating to slide dynamics during recoil and not accuracy and cosmetics. The lubrication in a tight slide will have a different shear stress characteristics than lube in a loose fitting slide. That will make them feel different during recoil for a given lube. BTW, I’m not sure I buy the tighter guns are more consistent therefore more reliable argument given that just about every modern combat handgun has a relatively loose slide/frame fit (not to mention the old military issue 1911). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cletus9mm Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 ...When a $500 gun is loose like a GI, you can fit the frame to slide and change the fire controls, springs, hammer, barrel, safeties, sights, MSH parts, slide lightening, checkering accurizing, etc. $500 later, you have a custom Springfield that will embarrass a nighthawk or even Wilson... Its hard to put back metal where there is none. I'm pricing out parts for a build, and spec'd out mostly wilson parts and have over 600 dollars in parts. Throwing 500 bucks at a 550 dollar gun most of the time equals a 1000 dollar gun. Not a 2000+ gun. Start out with junk and end up with junk. It is really hard to do it the other way around in a cost effective manner IMHO. sorry for the drift but i'm going to have to agree with the basic premise of gigo. garabe in garbage out. im using garbage as a very relative term here but for discussion sake this is the acronym that i'm going to use. taking a gun with a relatively loose slide to frame fit and then having parts installed by someone who is an expert will most certainly make a gun easier to shoot well because of mechanical accuracy and ease of use. if you have the tools/ability to take a host weapon like a GI and install parts on it that allow it to function like a more expensive weapon than the money you have into it, then you certainly have more talent and time than i have. 500 dollar gun and 500 dollars in higher quality parts does not rival a gun that is custom fit piece by piece from the ground up. smiths use an oversize slide and frame to start out with for a reason. the reason is their finished product is of higher quality. you simply cannot have an equivalent when you start out from the very beginning of a build with a lesser slide to frame fit. can you make the fit better? absolutely you can. if you're going to do this work yourself you can probably even make it worthwhile. peening the slide/frame or adding accurails, or welding will make the fit better, but peened guns spring back and eventually end up "loose" again. "tight" guns will do the same over time but certainly hold their dimensions better than a gun that peened or otherwise modified. all of this is assuming you have the ability to do these upgrades on your own. if you have to pay a smith to do it, my guess is it will be cheaper for him and his customer in the long haul to start out with oversized frame and slide. will the 1250 or "x" dollar gun rival the 2000+ dollar gun in accuracy? im certain it could come close. would the feel of the trigger be as nice? most likely yes. could i justify the extra expense? maybe, maybe not. i know with certainty that i could not call the two rivals. i understand that california has restrictions that make it difficult when building something custom but imo the end game of a build can only be as good as the pieces used from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now