Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Here I sit at 0330 - been trying to figure out / fix this problem for the past 6 hours with no success. Problem: my .223 rounds are varying in OAL from 2.220 to 2.245 (variation of .025). I've loaded literally tens of thousands of .223 rifle rounds on this press and have never had this issue. My historical OAL variation, when using pick-up range brass, has been closer to .008-.010 - numbers I can live with. I did a search of this forum and have checked/corrected all the "normal issues" - loose shellplate, incorrectly set dies, not loading with a full shellplate, inconsistent handle stroke, case overfilled with powder/compressed load, etc. Think I'm down to two possible culprits - a bad seating die or an inconsistent lot of bullets (I'm using 55gr Montana Gold). I'm almost ready to rule out the inconsistent bullets because I'm using from the same big box that I loaded my last lot of ammo from - had zero issues with OAL last time. Really starting to lean toward a bad seating die, even though this is the same seating die I've used since I started reloading .223. I did have some difficulty in unscrewing the seating die from the toolhead - had to whack the wrench a couple times with a hammer to get it to break loose. Could that have damaged the seating die? I checked the die and couldn't see anything visibly wrong with it. Press is a Dillon 650. I do all brass case-prep separately from loading. I trim my brass to 1.740; a spot check of trimmed brass revealed that check samples are all within .004 of desired length - good to go there. My toolhead is set up with a the dillon powder die in station 2, an RCSB seater die in station 3 and a Lee FCD in station 5. Using MG 55gr FMJ bullets on top of 25.35gr of W748 powder. Is .025 variation in OAL really as bad as I think it is? It's certainly worse than I've seen in the past using the same exact components and press set-up. What OAL variations do you normally get when reloading .223? Any suggestions to fix the problem - perhaps a new seating die? Will gladly welcome any thoughts or discussion. I'm going to bed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsoncop9 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) i hope your problem is the same as mine, because i have the solution. i also reload .223 but the problem presented the other day when i was reloading 9mm. extreme variations in oal. i finally found the solution. take the shell plate off. under the shell plate there is two additional allen head screws that are in the center and holds the round thing to the long center shaft as it is lifted up. sorry for the non terminology. these need to be tight. mine were loose and causing a lot of flex. i then put shell plate back on and started loading and remeasured cartridges and noticed they were all with in a thousand of each other a lot more consistent. i really hope this fixes your problem because it is very frustrating. its not the shell plate it is what the shell plate rides on that is loose and needs to be tight. good luck i normally don't trim because i am lazy and i get about .05-.07 OAL difference. with you trimming it should be a lot tighter for you. Edited January 17, 2011 by arsoncop9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 i hope your problem is the same as mine, because i have the solution. i also reload .223 but the problem presented the other day when i was reloading 9mm. extreme variations in oal. i finally found the solution. take the shell plate off. under the shell plate there is two additional allen head screws that are in the center and holds the round thing to the long center shaft as it is lifted up. sorry for the non terminology. these need to be tight. mine were loose and causing a lot of flex. i then put shell plate back on and started loading and remeasured cartridges and noticed they were all with in a thousand of each other a lot more consistent. i really hope this fixes your problem because it is very frustrating. its not the shell plate it is what the shell plate rides on that is loose and needs to be tight. good luck i normally don't trim because i am lazy and i get about .05-.07 OAL difference. with you trimming it should be a lot tighter for you. Thanks for the advice, but this was one of the things that I checked/corrected during my 5 hours on the press last night. In fact, I even went so far as to break the entire press down and use the Dillon alignment tool to "true-up" the base assembly (that fits on top of the silver main operating rod) with the primer station hole. In the process of aligning the unit, I made sure the base assembly went back on TIGHT. Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Doug - Sounds really bad, but interesting. Have you tried loading a small batch with the Lee Crimp die backed out. (you can crimp them as a seperate step later). Just trying to eliminate one possibility. The more wierd and un-explicable the problem the more simple the oversight and solution. Has to be something very basic. You checked adjustment of the powder die as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Campbell Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Check the bottom end , link arms for cracks,( I had this happen), lose or broken bolts, a smashed primer somewhere in the works, where you cannot see it ,of course ( also had this ). or call Dillon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Did you check the length of the bullets? Remember, the seating stem sets the bullet by the ogive and fluctuations in bullet length can make a big difference in COAL. MG's are pretty consistent but, a bad batch is not unheard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Did you check the length of the bullets? Remember, the seating stem sets the bullet by the ogive and fluctuations in bullet length can make a big difference in COAL. MG's are pretty consistent but, a bad batch is not unheard of. If the stem is contacting the bullet tip it could be the problem. It should work like BMartens descibes. Take the stem out and with it upside/down set some bullets in it. They should contact on the ogive but if they wobble around they are hitting the bullet tip. If that's the case you need different bullet or deepen the hole in the stem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Doug - Sounds really bad, but interesting. Have you tried loading a small batch with the Lee Crimp die backed out. (you can crimp them as a seperate step later). Just trying to eliminate one possibility. The more wierd and un-explicable the problem the more simple the oversight and solution. Has to be something very basic. You checked adjustment of the powder die as well? Yep - completely removed the crimp die thinking that might be the issue, but the problem persisted. I haven't check the powder die adjustment - didn't realize that could affect OAL - how/what do I need to check on the powder die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Check the bottom end , link arms for cracks,( I had this happen), lose or broken bolts, a smashed primer somewhere in the works, where you cannot see it ,of course ( also had this ). or call Dillon. I just finished up checking the link arms for cracks - got a light out and went over it pretty good, but can't see any cracks or other issues. I checked the bottom end thoroughly yesterday when I took the entire machine apart - virtually certain that I diassembled and checked every place that a crushed primer may have been hiding. Plan to call Dillon tomorrow. Thanks for the tips and ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Did you check the length of the bullets? Remember, the seating stem sets the bullet by the ogive and fluctuations in bullet length can make a big difference in COAL. MG's are pretty consistent but, a bad batch is not unheard of. Good idea on checking bullet length - I hadn't done this. Just check the length of 20 random bullets from the box I'm using; average length is .746 with all within .001 of this reading. Consistency with bullet length appears to be fine. Thanks for the idea to check this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Did you check the length of the bullets? Remember, the seating stem sets the bullet by the ogive and fluctuations in bullet length can make a big difference in COAL. MG's are pretty consistent but, a bad batch is not unheard of. If the stem is contacting the bullet tip it could be the problem. It should work like BMartens descibes. Take the stem out and with it upside/down set some bullets in it. They should contact on the ogive but if they wobble around they are hitting the bullet tip. If that's the case you need different bullet or deepen the hole in the stem. Also hadn't thought of this tip. I pulled the seating stem and checked it out - the hole is plenty deep and bullets don't wobble at all when placed on the upside-down bullet seating stem. Hard to tell doing it by hand, but I tried feeding bullets into the stem crooked sideways and all seemed to self-correct and enter the seating stem correctly. This is the same seating die I've always used - while I had it apart, I checked it out and couldn't find anything visibly wrong with it (no cracks, abnormal wear, etc). Thanks for taking the time to write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Did you check the length of the bullets? Remember, the seating stem sets the bullet by the ogive and fluctuations in bullet length can make a big difference in COAL. MG's are pretty consistent but, a bad batch is not unheard of. If the stem is contacting the bullet tip it could be the problem. It should work like BMartens descibes. Take the stem out and with it upside/down set some bullets in it. They should contact on the ogive but if they wobble around they are hitting the bullet tip. If that's the case you need different bullet or deepen the hole in the stem. Also hadn't thought of this tip. I pulled the seating stem and checked it out - the hole is plenty deep and bullets don't wobble at all when placed on the upside-down bullet seating stem. Hard to tell doing it by hand, but I tried feeding bullets into the stem crooked sideways and all seemed to self-correct and enter the seating stem correctly. This is the same seating die I've always used - while I had it apart, I checked it out and couldn't find anything visibly wrong with it (no cracks, abnormal wear, etc). Thanks for taking the time to write. Sounds like the stem is OK then. At least you are eliminating stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Campbell Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Any updates?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do you size the brass in station one or do you do that in advance? If you are resizing, are you feeling any increased resistance? If you are getting a lot of resistance to resizing on some cases but not all, then the amount the shell plate deflects and the length of the stroke may be inconsistent. It only has to be off by a little bit to see a variance in OAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goat68 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Is there a consistant case that is causing the longer COAL? Maybe you are getting a compressed load with some cases that may be thicker(military)as there will be less volume inside the case? I don't know what W748 looks like so this is just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillon Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 When OAL fluctuates, it is usually not the OAL of the bullet that causes it, but variations in the ogive of the bullet. The seat stem contacts the side of the bullet, and pushes it from there down a given distance. Pull the seat stem, set a bullet in it, then measure from the top of the seat stem to the base of the bullet. Do this for 10-15 bullets and write the length down to see the variation. Also, when adjusting the seat die(and all dies, BTW),be sure to have a fired case in station 1 in the size die. This ensures consistant upward pressure on the toolhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 When OAL fluctuates, it is usually not the OAL of the bullet that causes it, but variations in the ogive of the bullet. The seat stem contacts the side of the bullet, and pushes it from there down a given distance. Pull the seat stem, set a bullet in it, then measure from the top of the seat stem to the base of the bullet. Do this for 10-15 bullets and write the length down to see the variation. Also, when adjusting the seat die(and all dies, BTW),be sure to have a fired case in station 1 in the size die. This ensures consistant upward pressure on the toolhead. That's what I did when I had the same problem. It turned out that the bargain priced bulk bullets had variations in the ogive. Not enough to see visually but enough that my calipers could measure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I had a similar issue where I was chasing the seating depth around based on the OAL and discovered that the tip of the bullets vary. I got a Hornady bullet comparitor and started measuring off of the ogive and realized what was happening and found I was actually getting extremely consistent seating depths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Any updates?? Didn't realize this thread was still active. I finally took the seating die apart, cleaned everything really well and put it back together - the variation is still there from time to time, but the vast majority of rounds are within .008 inch of median OAL. Per Dillon, any OAL variatiion within .010 of median is considered "normal". I still have the odd round now and again that is considerably longer or shorter (.015 inch or more from median). I try very hard to maintain a consistent stroke on the operating handle, but maybe perhaps slight variations in my upstroke are causing the different OALs? Still not entirely happy with the end product, but the ammo has been flawless in matches so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Do you size the brass in station one or do you do that in advance? If you are resizing, are you feeling any increased resistance? If you are getting a lot of resistance to resizing on some cases but not all, then the amount the shell plate deflects and the length of the stroke may be inconsistent. It only has to be off by a little bit to see a variance in OAL. I do all brass prep as a separate process from loading itself - typically prep 2K or more of .223 brass at a time. The resized / trimmed cases are amazingly consistent in regards to OAL - typically within .002 of median case length. As others have theorized, my problem may be due to variations in the diameter of the ogive where it contacts the bullet seating stem. Edited February 10, 2011 by Fullauto_Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildot1 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 FWIW If you are measuring from the base to the point of the bullet you are wasting your time. I also don't see where the length of the brass has any effect on base to ogive length unless the brass is so long it is contacting the die in a manner to stop the press from fully cycling. I also had this problem loading 80 gr sierras long ago, tip of bullet was contacting seater before ogive. sent seater plug in and it was machined to allow bullet to to seat of ogive. I truly love my Dillon, but the fact that there is some flex in the system is why you don't see a lot of benchrest or long range ammo loaded on them. I use the old RCBS single stage for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saibot Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 mildot1 You are correct on all counts. Things really changed when I started using a bullet comparator. I wrote a post about it with some pictures. Notice the first one of the meplats. Very uneven. http://www.recoilsports.com/2011/02/improve-your-handloads-with-a-bullet-comparator/ I also started loading my precision ammo on a Forester single stage press. The Dillon 650 I have is great for my autoloaders but just not consistent enough for my bolt gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njl Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Reading this thread, I had an idea similar to what dillon posted about measuring a bullet in the seating stem. I opened up my Dillon .223 die set (haven't used them yet) and they're kind of different from Dillon pistol dies. The instructions are kind of brief too. The seating die has what looks like it might be an adjustable stem threaded into the top of it, but it seems frozen in place. Not knowing if it's meant to be messed with, I was reluctant to put any real torque on it. The resizing die also has what looks like it might be an adjustable bolt in the top...but it too doesn't want to move. How do these things work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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