Poppers, the great Equalizer?

[Wild Gene]

Just a question or two about poppers at these matches.

When I would set poppers for Cowboy matches, I would set them so they could be knocked down with a good center shot from a factory type .38 special load. That would allow the guys shooting legal calibers that were less powerful, lower recoil loads to be able to knock them down with a good, more carefully aimed hit above the center shot calibration point, and guys shooting full house .45 Colt to be able to make a quicker, less well aimed below the center shot calibration point. It is important to note that there was no minimum Power Factor in SASS, just caliber, and I am not certain they have not implemented one now.

How are they generally calibrated for these matches? Just a good center shot with minimum PF ammo? Or are they calibrated so a high shot with minimum Power Factor?

Thanks,

Gene

[The_Vigilante]

Not sure about IDPA but in USPSA they are calibrated by 9mm. Think it's the same for IDPA

[Steve J]

I use my low pain threshold knuckles or a slap of my fingers to calibrate my poppers. That method has been verified by WWB 105PF 38 Special out of a 4" Smith.

[Joe4d]

If the competitor is using legal ammo then a shot anywhere in the calibration zone of a Popper, (basically the circle part) should knock it down. If it doesnt that should be a range equipment failure, I dont see how it is fair to say minimum power factor is "X" or nonexistant but then try to punish or reward someone for using different ammo or calibers.

[Steve Koski]

IDPA has no popper or steel target calibration procedure.

If you know of some official ruling, please post it.

[Wild Gene]

If the competitor is using legal ammo then a shot anywhere in the calibration zone of a Popper, (basically the circle part) should knock it down. If it doesnt that should be a range equipment failure, I dont see how it is fair to say minimum power factor is "X" or nonexistant but then try to punish or reward someone for using different ammo or calibers.

Haha, you don't get it. We all did that because guys were shooting 32-20's with a grain of bullseye. More like airsoft type recoil. That was not right. That's like saying it is not fair to make some people shoot Minor, and be penalized extra points for a less than perfect hit on paper that guys shooting Major, oh wait, they do do that... go figure...I didn't ask that anyway. (No disrespect intended either.)

[The_Vigilante]

Think it's just an "unwritten" rule since 9mm is usually the lowest caliber used in IDPA for regular stages (not BUG stages).

[Joe4d]

If the competitor is using legal ammo then a shot anywhere in the calibration zone of a Popper, (basically the circle part) should knock it down. If it doesnt that should be a range equipment failure, I dont see how it is fair to say minimum power factor is "X" or nonexistant but then try to punish or reward someone for using different ammo or calibers.

Haha, you don't get it. We all did that because guys were shooting 32-20's with a grain of bullseye. More like airsoft type recoil. That was not right. That's like saying it is not fair to make some people shoot Minor, and be penalized extra points for a less than perfect hit on paper that guys shooting Major, oh wait, they do do that... go figure...I didn't ask that anyway. (No disrespect intended either.)

Actually you dont get it, if 32-20 with one grain of bullseye is a legal load then it should activate whatever target is there. If you dont like their loads change the rule of the load. If you rig targets to not work you are the one cheating not the competitor that is using rulebook legal ammo, it is also nothing like minor and major scoring. In USPSA there is a RULE about power factor, loads need to meet those rules and be scored according to a published set of rules, Not because someone arbitrarily thinks, "Thats not right". The original poster was asking about targets in a game with a low or no powerfactor minimum. This is the same type of mentality that gets match directors designing stages to handicap a gun they dont like, or slow down a style of shooter they dont like, Get the personal bias stuff out of shooting sports and follow the published rules. Campaign to change the rules you dont like.

[Duane Thomas]

I didn't know they had knockdown targets in CAS. I thiought it was all "Ding the target, it's counted as a hit." Do they allow knockdown targets in the SASS Rule Book? I read the entire book a few years ago and I don't remember knockdown targets being addressed. Of course, it's quite possible that all that means is that I don't remember it, or that things have changed since then.

[Merlin Orr]

<snip>Get the personal bias stuff out of shooting sports and follow the published rules. Campaign to change the rules you dont like. <snip>

Truth.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Merlin Orr

[sirveyr]

Think it's just an "unwritten" rule since 9mm is usually the lowest caliber used in IDPA for regular stages (not BUG stages).

There are a lot of these "unwritten" rules. I wish that they would be clarified, but that is another thread...

As Steve pointed out, IDPA has no written procedure, but Post #107 will explain a little bit.

[Wild Gene]

If the competitor is using legal ammo then a shot anywhere in the calibration zone of a Popper, (basically the circle part) should knock it down. If it doesnt that should be a range equipment failure, I dont see how it is fair to say minimum power factor is "X" or nonexistant but then try to punish or reward someone for using different ammo or calibers.

Haha, you don't get it. We all did that because guys were shooting 32-20's with a grain of bullseye. More like airsoft type recoil. That was not right. That's like saying it is not fair to make some people shoot Minor, and be penalized extra points for a less than perfect hit on paper that guys shooting Major, oh wait, they do do that... go figure...I didn't ask that anyway. (No disrespect intended either.)

Actually you dont get it, if 32-20 with one grain of bullseye is a legal load then it should activate whatever target is there. If you dont like their loads change the rule of the load. If you rig targets to not work you are the one cheating not the competitor that is using rulebook legal ammo, it is also nothing like minor and major scoring. In USPSA there is a RULE about power factor, loads need to meet those rules and be scored according to a published set of rules, Not because someone arbitrarily thinks, "Thats not right". The original poster was asking about targets in a game with a low or no powerfactor minimum. This is the same type of mentality that gets match directors designing stages to handicap a gun they dont like, or slow down a style of shooter they dont like, Get the personal bias stuff out of shooting sports and follow the published rules. Campaign to change the rules you dont like.

I was the "original poster", and I did Campaign to change the rules, and they did change the procedure to exactly what I was doing.

[Wild Gene]

I didn't know they had knockdown targets in CAS. I thiought it was all "Ding the target, it's counted as a hit." Do they allow knockdown targets in the SASS Rule Book? I read the entire book a few years ago and I don't remember knockdown targets being addressed. Of course, it's quite possible that all that means is that I don't remember it, or that things have changed since then.

Yep, they use KD's. It is all good. Heck, one match I set up, I calibrated a "cowboy plate rack" with a .22, and had people complain about them. That is why I don't shoot many Cowboy Matches any more, I prefer something that has a minimum power factor, and that was not anything that was in the books a few years ago. Now that may have changed, but many of those types of rules were not really enforced very strictly. You would never see a chrony at a match. What they would do, would be to use poppers, generally calibrated with a 158 grain .38 special center shot.

Regards,

[Wild Gene]

Think it's just an "unwritten" rule since 9mm is usually the lowest caliber used in IDPA for regular stages (not BUG stages).

There are a lot of these "unwritten" rules. I wish that they would be clarified, but that is another thread...

As Steve pointed out, IDPA has no written procedure, but Post #107 will explain a little bit.

Thank you, great thread.

I was trying to figure out where to set my poppers at home more than anything. 9mm center shot. That really isn't very fair, is it? the 9mm still has to hit center shot or above to make it fall, and a .45 can still make a hit lower on the target and make it fall! LOL!!!! It is a vicious circle, isn't it? Seriously, and with all due respect, I was just trying to figure out what to expect, but regardless, you do have to make a better shot with a 9mm to knock one over than you do a .40 or .45.

Hope everyone was able to shoot this weekend.

WG

[RickB]

With the new 105,000 power factor in SSP division, and the possibility that someone will be shooting legal ammo out of a 2" revolver, steel should probably fall if hit by a 90,000 power factor load. I generally adjust steel so that it will fall from anything more than a small gust of wind.

[Wild Gene]

With the new 105,000 power factor in SSP division, and the possibility that someone will be shooting legal ammo out of a 2" revolver, steel should probably fall if hit by a 90,000 power factor load. I generally adjust steel so that it will fall from anything more than a small gust of wind.

That is really another question. If it doesn't come out of your gun making 105, then it really isn't legal, is it?

Thanks!

WG

[Gregg K]

With the new 105,000 power factor in SSP division, and the possibility that someone will be shooting legal ammo out of a 2" revolver, steel should probably fall if hit by a 90,000 power factor load. I generally adjust steel so that it will fall from anything more than a small gust of wind.

That is really another question. If it doesn't come out of your gun making 105, then it really isn't legal, is it?

Thanks!

WG

By the rules it would be legal if it makes power in a barrel of maximum length for the division. It doesn't have to make it from their gun. I don't think it's right but that's the rule.

2. Official Chronograph Procedure

Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a

gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same

gun type.

[Steve Koski]

So now poppers have to fall at 89 PF or so from a 1 7/8" snubbie?

Why not just require calibration at 32 PF, so 22 LR can play too.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Steve Koski

[Wild Gene]

With the new 105,000 power factor in SSP division, and the possibility that someone will be shooting legal ammo out of a 2" revolver, steel should probably fall if hit by a 90,000 power factor load. I generally adjust steel so that it will fall from anything more than a small gust of wind.

That is really another question. If it doesn't come out of your gun making 105, then it really isn't legal, is it?

Thanks!

WG

By the rules it would be legal if it makes power in a barrel of maximum length for the division. It doesn't have to make it from their gun. I don't think it's right but that's the rule.

2. Official Chronograph Procedure

Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a

gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same

gun type.

Oh, now I know... Interesting, and a big "Thank You".

It looks as if poppers can be used as a tool in a match as much as a challenge.

I must say that I can think of no way that a 1-7/8" snubbie could possibly be any type of advantage in a match.

Now that really brings up a whole other issue, which is that there are a lot of folks carrying .38 snubbies and .380 autos as their primary self defense weapon, aside from common sense, and never really carry anthing bigger until they go to a match.

The 105 PF wouldn't really be much of an issue, except that different divisions shoot at the same time at a match, at least as far as calibration of poppers is concerned. So since that is the case, they really do need to be calibrated to fall with a center shot from the above stated rule handgun and load, OR LESS. At home, I can just use the knuckle method, and be adaquetly prepared for a match.

None of this would really matter if it wasn't for those darned timers! Shoot, have fun, prepare.

Thanks again. I really appreciate everyone's input.

WG

[RickB]

By the rules it would be legal if it makes power in a barrel of maximum length for the division. It doesn't have to make it from their gun. I don't think it's right but that's the rule.

So, the better rule would be to force those shooting short, light, "real" carry guns to load hotter than those shooting 4" guns? The IDPA chrono procedure is the last little bit of the rules that might encourage someone to shoot something other than a gun of max size and weight.

[Steve Koski]

Should the competitor’s ammunition fail to meet the power floor,

the competitor will have the option to chronograph three (3)

additional rounds using his gun or a gun of MAXIMUM barrel

length for the DIVISION. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the

gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of

the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve

maximum velocity.

It is not the match organizers responsibility to try to provide a

gun of every type and caliber. The logistics of this could be

almost impossible. If the match officials can, they may provide

the gun or borrow one from a different match competitor to

reattempt to pass the chronograph. However, if a suitable

substitute can not be obtained, the attempt must be made using

the competitor’s gun. It is ultimately the responsibility of the

competitor to insure his ammunition will make power.

[Gregg K]

So, the better rule would be to force those shooting short, light, "real" carry guns to load hotter than those shooting 4" guns? The IDPA chrono procedure is the last little bit of the rules that might encourage someone to shoot something other than a gun of max size and weight.

There are a couple of problems. Some competitors will shoot a shorter and lighter guns for it's advantages. A lighter gun will transition a little easier than a heavy gun and the shorter barrels produce less power so there is less recoil. Heavy guns are not always the best answer to faster shooting as some think. Should we give those people that choose to compete with a shorter lighter gun a pass on the required power floor?

As Steve points out, it is the competitors responsibility to satisfy the chrono procedure so those that compete with shorter guns that don't make power really need to carry a second gun to the match that does make power since it is not the match organizers responsibility to provide such a gun if the competitors gun doesn't make power.

I just think that it would be a lot simpler and fair to just say that the gun you shoot needs to meet the minimums.

[Wild Gene]

So, the better rule would be to force those shooting short, light, "real" carry guns to load hotter than those shooting 4" guns? The IDPA chrono procedure is the last little bit of the rules that might encourage someone to shoot something other than a gun of max size and weight.

There are a couple of problems. Some competitors will shoot a shorter and lighter guns for it's advantages. A lighter gun will transition a little easier than a heavy gun and the shorter barrels produce less power so there is less recoil. Heavy guns are not always the best answer to faster shooting as some think. Should we give those people that choose to compete with a shorter lighter gun a pass on the required power floor?

As Steve points out, it is the competitors responsibility to satisfy the chrono procedure so those that compete with shorter guns that don't make power really need to carry a second gun to the match that does make power since it is not the match organizers responsibility to provide such a gun if the competitors gun doesn't make power.

I just think that it would be a lot simpler and fair to just say that the gun you shoot needs to meet the minimums.

Isn't Rick's point to encourage people to shoot what they carry, and not a game gun? Maybe that was the intent you meant when you were quoting him?

All this brings me back to part of my original question. If a smaller lighter shorter gun does have less recoil, is it not fair that they have to take better care in shooting a popper than someone with a longer heavier more recoil gun? Their shot would also have to be more precise in a real life scenario, wouldn't it? So are poppers actually an "equalizer" much the same as target zones on paper?

As a side note, I love shooting poppers! I really like reactive steel. I always chuckle when guys cringe at the sight of a plate rack.

Take care,

WG

[Steve Koski]

I agree. If you can't knock it down, shoot again, aim higher. If you're upset that you can't knock over the steel, use different ammo, or a different gun, or a more powerful cartridge. Too much whining.

I've only ever awarded a re-shoot once because of a hard popper set. The guy hit it twice with factory .40 rounds in the circle and it didn't go down. He then shot it higher and it went over.

He didn't complain, but I went up to inspect it and the base had dug down into the ground. I offered him a re-shoot and he accepted. His second score was virtually the same as his first, as other (non-range) problems got him.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Steve Koski

[Gregg K]

Isn't Rick's point to encourage people to shoot what they carry, and not a game gun? Maybe that was the intent you meant when you were quoting him?

All this brings me back to part of my original question. If a smaller lighter shorter gun does have less recoil, is it not fair that they have to take better care in shooting a popper than someone with a longer heavier more recoil gun? Their shot would also have to be more precise in a real life scenario, wouldn't it? So are poppers actually an "equalizer" much the same as target zones on paper?

As a side note, I love shooting poppers! I really like reactive steel. I always chuckle when guys cringe at the sight of a plate rack.

Take care,

WG

It's OK to encourage folks to bring what ever they want, I just don't believe in making special allowances for their choices. Small short guns will make less power than the longer barrel models and will be less effective both on the street and the game. The competitor chooses what to shoot in the game just as they choose what to carry in their personal lives.

If it doesn't work well than they made the wrong choice. People also have the notion that everyone carries small easy to carry guns. I realize the ineffectiveness of some of the small hide out guns so I carry a full size 1911 as my personal choice. It will down poppers nicely.

As to your statement about the poppers being an equalizer I'm not sure but they will tell you if your choice in weapons is an effective one.