70116 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I'd like to start by thanking all of you who responded to various posts and gave me so much valuable information and things to think about. Rather than repeat a bunch of narrative and desciption, here's the link to APEX Tacticals blog entry which has pictures and video. I'll post more pictures later in the week. Randy, Scott and Lisa at APEX are fantastic. The following is an excerpt of the email I sent to them after receiving the finished gun. I can’t thank the three of you enough for the work that you’ve put in on this project. We all know that what seemed to be a relatively straightforward set of modifications turned into a Frankenstein like project with the issues that arose. You really suffered the consequences of base product design issues. So, thank you all for sticking with this, for the thoughts and ideas that have brought it to fruition and for putting up with my calls and emails. You are a collection of skilled, knowledgeable professionals who have demonstrated that you’re entitled to use the WWII Seabee slogan: “The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer.” Edited for spelling Edited January 12, 2011 by 70116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Pictures added. These are the actual gun. I'll add more pics later in the week. Edited January 13, 2011 by 70116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Totally awesome...someone really needs to make a frame mounted optic though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiDirkona Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Very nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaredr Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Pictures added. These are the actual gun. I'll add more pics later in the week. very nice George!! what are your thoughts on the delta point - how do you like the triangular reticle vs, a dot? Anything in particular that moved you towards the leupold vs. a JP/doctor optic or one of the trijicon RMR's? Thanks, jared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) Pictures added. These are the actual gun. I'll add more pics later in the week. very nice George!! what are your thoughts on the delta point - how do you like the triangular reticle vs, a dot? Anything in particular that moved you towards the leupold vs. a JP/doctor optic or one of the trijicon RMR's? Thanks, jared Hi Jared, OK, I need to give you a quick history. I came to sport shooting at age 70 after 47 years of no gun handling. I enjoy it a lot and discovered that if I was going to be able to shoot decently, I needed to use an optic. Since I didnt get into it to compete with the young turks but to improve my gun handling skills, I decided not to get a real open gun but to spend a lot less and use off the shelf parts to put something together. (An aside for latech15 I hope youre laughing really hard now). I already had decided that the M&P was the gun that felt best and that I shot best so I had purchased a 9L to replace the 9c I was using in competition. I didnt reload so I decided to shoot 9 minor. I researched barrels and comps and found that there werent many options, 2 barrel choices and no one made a comp for the M&P. APEX had done their thing on my 9c so I called Randy and discussed this project with him. Well, is sounded so simple, that he got sucked right in. So now I had my gunsmith. Again, trying to stay with off the shelf products, the only optic that fit the M&P without unknown modifications was the Delta Point. After conferring with Randy, I ordered a bunch of stuff from SSS; Tungsten and Stainless Guide Rods, springs, mag wells, mag extensions and other assorted items. Then I realized that I needed to start shooting open sooner, rather than later. I had a USPSA class coming up with a group of GOOD local shooters and I wanted to take the class with an Open Gun. When I had chatted with Storm Lake, they were insistent that their ported barrel would be as effective as a comp for 9 minor, so I also ordered one of those. Then, since I was away for the summer (this was taking place in August 2010), I purchased another 9L and had it shipped to APEX along with all of the other stuff I had ordered. I had also researched comps and after talking with friends decided that flatter was more important than felt recoil, so I purchased a Jager Comp (made for Glocks) which has all of its ports on top. Randy and Scott went to work and I played with the 2nd gun, which I thought would become a Steel Gun after all was done. The only differences were the barrel, lack of comp and iron sights. As testing progressed, Scott lightened the slide, popple holed the barrel, modified the comp by combining the first 2 sections and played with Recoil Springs and guide rods. I got the gun back the day before my class. Since I was shooting minor I was using factory ammunition at about a 132 PF. After the first couple of shots I had a stovepipe, then another and another and another. I think it was latech15 who was in the class, who said that every ejected casing was bouncing off the Delta Point and back into the ejection port, creating a stovepipe good eyes Jeff. Everyone in the class gathered around to watch and thats exactly what was happening. I finished the day with my 9c and that evening switched the Delta Point to my other 9L. I got to the range early then next morning and sighted it in. Again, every ejected casing hit the Delta Point but these didnt bounce back into the gun so I kept shooting. I spoke to Randy on Monday and sent the gun back. The problem persisted and I have to give Randy and Scott a great deal of credit for not giving up. I separately decided to try a 9 Major load in gun #2 which I was still shooting and a friend who knows what hes doing helped and guided me. The load felt good, was accurate and pretty flat so I told Randy & Scott that it would be OK to see if going Major solved the problem. It didnt solve the problem but did give them other areas to explore. While they were working on that, I had decided to get a new digital pocket camera with decent video capabilities. Well, I picked a Casio EX-FH100 which for $209 does 1000 frame per second video and had it sent to Randy to see if it would help. I think that the video provided the last little bit of documentation about what was going on and they solved the problem, for major loads. The sent the gun and camera back to me on Monday and I waited until Scott put a blog entry up on their web site. He also has a link to a youtube video which shows the ejection after its been fixed. I cant give them enough credit for their skill and perseverance. We talked further this week and have decided that the 9L is not the best choice for an M&P Open gun and that a FS 9 would be better. The reasoning: the lower is identical, the slide is much lighter and that should address the slide speed issues that are at the heart of the ejection issue we encountered, slide length doesnt matter from a sighting standpoint when youre using an optic and the .7 difference in barrel length is immaterial. Were both putting our resources where our mouths are. I picked up a M&P FS9 with Threaded Barrel today and will ship it to APEX when they get back from The SHOT Show. This will be a Steel Open gun. So to answer your questions about the Delta Point (I now have 3 of them). I believe its still the only Optic which fits the M&P without modification to the gun. Now that I shoot it, I really like the sight picture. As an aside, at least a dozen really good shooters have tried mine and like it, a couple have gotten or are getting one. Ive fired a traditional red dot a few times but not enough to really compare. My #2 gun which also has a Delta Point has now taken over 4000 hits from ejected casings. It has NOT lost its zero. The glass has not scratched, The metal frame now has a couple of rough spots but the color hasnt chipped. A couple of weeks ago, shooting freestyle and being razzed by my friend, I hit a 2-3" shard of clay at 100 yds on the third shot. Ill be taking the Delta Point off of Gun #2 and turning it back into a Production Gun with iron sights. That Delta Point is going on my CCW 9c. The third is going on the new Steel Open Gun. Oh yeah, would I do it again you bet, its been a great experience. Lastly, I shot the #1 gun this afternoon to check how it was sighted in. I went to an indoor range since it was in the mid 30 degree range and firing at 17 yds.. I started with 25 rounds of 9 minor (Remington 147 JHP, 3.4 TG, 1.120 OAL, 128 PF) and they were fine It felt like a .22. I fine-tuned the zero with 10 rounds of 9 Major (MG 124JHP, 6.6 Autocomp, 1.165 OAL) and then fire 2 strings of 10 as fast as I got my sight picture back. There was next to no muzzle flip, I never lost the triangle and I put all shots in the lower A shooting faster than I ever have. It was an unreal experience. Hope I havent bored you too much but now you know the rest of the story. Ill get more pictures up as soon as I can. George Edited January 15, 2011 by 70116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaredr Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thanks george - glad to hear the gun(s) are working out for you and appreciate the detailed info on the delatapoint. i've been pondering about putting a red-dot on one of my production guns and its reassuring to hear that you're seeing no issues with reliability on any of yours (even after 4000 empty 9mm cartridges bouncing off of one!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrin Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thanks for posting about your build. I have a FS9 that just sits in the safe since I purchased my 9L. What was done to the comp to get it to fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Nicely done! I wanted to try this a while ago but never had the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thanks for posting about your build. I have a FS9 that just sits in the safe since I purchased my 9L. What was done to the comp to get it to fit? The comp is a standard 1/2 28 thread that will just screw onto a Storm Lake or M&P threaded barrel. Mine was modified to add a set screw to keep it in place and later in the process the first two chambers were combined. The comp was selected specifically because it was designed to deal only with muzzle rise and has no side ports to use the gas for any other purpose. We thought that felt recoil would not be an issue. I believe that it was the correct decision, at least for me. The fit is not the prettiest. The comp matches up to a Glock and is wider than the M&P slide. Quite honestly, I care more about functionality than appearance. I'm certain that if there was enough of a market, Jager would develop a comp that matched up to the M&P. So, you need a threaded barrel for your FS and since the com puts you in Open, you want an Optic like the Delta Point. Cost of barrel, comp & sight = more than you paid for the gun. You also then want all the APEX stuff, Tungsten or Stainless Guide Rod, various Recoil Springs, Mag well and mag extensions = more $. If you can't or don't want to do all the work yourself, add the costs for a good gunsmith which means APEX or Burwell, who've done this before. As Jeff (latech15) has already pointed out, you can buy a good used S_I for not much more. BUT, if the M&P is right ergonomically vs the 1911, go have a good time with an M&P build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Nicely done! I wanted to try this a while ago but never had the money. Thank you. See my comments in the previous post regarding the costs. It really does mean that shooting Open takes $. It's like riding in a Mardi Gras Krewe in New Orleans. Someone asked me what it costs me and I told them that I didn't want to know, because if I did, I'd quit. Same here with the guns, and now I'm embarking on a second one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero-down Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 70116 - Gun looks great. My 9mm FS open gun looks very similar and I used a number of the same pieces. I actually experience the same issue with my full size in that the cases from minor ammo still hit my optic. Thats with a 13lb ISMI spring. Its 100% reliable but it won't eject far enough to clear the sight. Major ammo is no problem. What springs are in that 9L setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 70116 - Gun looks great. My 9mm FS open gun looks very similar and I used a number of the same pieces. I actually experience the same issue with my full size in that the cases from minor ammo still hit my optic. Thats with a 13lb ISMI spring. Its 100% reliable but it won't eject far enough to clear the sight. Major ammo is no problem. What springs are in that 9L setup? Thanks for the nice words. 11 lb ISMI with 4 coils cut off. Randy also modified the ejection port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 How many rounds are you able to get in that big stick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 How many rounds are you able to get in that big stick? It holds 27. The Taylor Freelance adds 10 to the 17 in the standard mag. I have found that if it's full,, it takes a lot of effort to be certain that the mag is seated properly, so I load it to 25. I plan my stages for a mag change at 20, allowing lots of makeups which I hopefully don't need, so the 25 is fine. EVERY match I shoot has either a Texas Star or Polish Plate Rack and I'm not at a level where I can run either of them - yet! So I do need extra shots. One of the clubs is talking about 2 Texas Stars at each match. When you shoot them every week, they're just another target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Can somebody post the links to the youtube videos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Here you go APEX Video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Totally awesome...someone really needs to make a frame mounted optic though I have some pieces that I made to mount an optic to the rail. I'm not sure if the plastic in that area is solid enough to hold the zero. Free to a good home if anyone wants to try it out. I would whittle on the comp a little so it matches the contour of the M&P slide. Right now it screams "GLOCK" Edited January 20, 2011 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Totally awesome...someone really needs to make a frame mounted optic though Speed Shooter Specialties is working on one right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) Totally awesome...someone really needs to make a frame mounted optic though Speed Shooter Specialties is working on one right now. A bunch of you seem to be really hung up on frame mounts for the optics. You're like a lot of people here in New Orleans who don't want to try new things or are resistant to change. While there's no one gun, optic or anything else for everyone or everything, there are always new developments to try and you should try it before rejecting it. We're having fun with it as well. We tried a number of steel loads in it yesterday, an MG 95 gr that chrono'd at 1470 ran the gun like they were made for each other. I don't have the load date handy but I believe that was 7.5 of Titewad and I don't remember the OAL. I'm in the process of geting opinions from folks I know who are expert (A, M and GM) about the gun. Most everyone thinks it's really cool looking and likes the feel. They like the optic position once they feel I had one friend shoot it last evening. He picked it up, checked the trigger, put a mag in, and put 17 rounds in the A at 15 yds, firing nonstop. His comments were: "I don't believe how light it is (he shoots an STI), it was completely flat and the dot didn't move". He asked about the PF of the ammunition (172 PF) because it was so soft. His final comment was, "I wouldn't have believed it, it's really nice, enjoy it." I've got a few people lined up to fire it Monday night and I'll post their comments later in the week. Edited January 22, 2011 by 70116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Awsome stuff man, I'm guessing this gun is 'Open1', Have you tried to do that with 'Open2' yet or have you sold it off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 Awsome stuff man, I'm guessing this gun is 'Open1', Have you tried to do that with 'Open2' yet or have you sold it off? Yes, This gun is 'Open 1' and thank you for the kind words. 'Open 2' which only had drop in parts; Storm Lake Ported Barrel, Delta Point sight and SSS Magwell, is getting it's standard barrel back with Dawson adjustable rear and Dawson F/O front Tritium sights, no magwell and becoming my Production gun. It will also be my backup CCW. There wasn't any slide lightening done nor were there any ejection port modifications made. I'll play with the guide rod, Tungsten or stainless, and springs (11 through 15#) and see what shoots best with the softest load. We have good loads for 115, 124 amd 147 JHP's so it all comes down to what feels best to me and minimizes muzzle flip. We discovered that due to the slide weight, the 9L and even more so the 9 PRO, which is even heavier, aren't reallly adaptable to 9 Open. The stock slide almost stops before it fully cycles. When I take the litle knowledge I have and realize that there's not going to be any noticible difference in accuracy between the 5.71" threaded barrel of the 9L or 9 PRO and the 5.01" threaded barrel of the 9 FS, and that slide length doesn't come into play with a RDS, the 9FS is a much better choice for an Open Gun. If I was going to scrap or sell 'Open 1' (which I am not going to do), I would build a new Open gun on a 9 FS - speaking of which, we come to 'Open 3', our next project which will start in late February. 'Open 3' will be my Steel Gun and will be a 9FS. After pricing the alternatives, we came up with the S&P 9 Threaded Barrel as the least expensive option. Since just about everything except for the slide itself is interchangable between the FS and the L or PRO, we have all of the parts we need from 'Open 2'. Guide Rods, Springs, Delta Point and a bunch of different loads to try. The only part I need to buy is a Comp. I've started to research those to determine what will work best with steel loads. Wehad a great deal of success with the modified Jager on 'Open 1' and I like trhe design concept that all of the ports are directed to flatness so I'm leaning towards that for a start. I originally decided on the M&P platform when I started shooting Production with my CCW 9c. That has now been set up with the APEX Competition Springs and other mods which make it unsuitable as a CCW gun so it will be my Production backup. I have acquired another 9c which is being set up as my Primary CCW with the APEX DCAEK (Carry Kit) and a Delta Point sight. I am so happy with the Delta Point and feel more comfortable and faster with it than iron sights, particularly at night. I need 'special glasses' to shoot iron sights but use my street glasses with the DP. To me, its a no brainer. So that's where we go from here. I'm travelling a lot over that next three weeks but when I return I'll get some good videos up of Open 1 n action. Last comment. If I wanted to shoot Limited, I just have to buy a .40FS or .40L slide, and a few mags. I can use the lower from 'Open 3', Guide Rods and Springs that I have, and I have a Limited Gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred5876r Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Here is my 9L Open gun, built by David Bowie. Storm Lake ported barrel, Trijicon RMR milled into slide, Bowie "LX" trigger job, full stipple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Here is my 9L Open gun, built by David Bowie. Storm Lake ported barrel, Trijicon RMR milled into slide, Bowie "LX" trigger job, full stipple. 9 Major or Minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred5876r Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I use it for USPSA Open Minor (an odd duck, I realize) and also for steel. I posted the wrong picture, I have since installed a Speed Shooter Specialties magwell, which necessitates the use of Taylor Freelance extensions. I have one 170mm and two 140mm. I can shoot all but the longest stages with the single 170. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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