lugnut Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 I was working with a shooter in our club the other day. He said he had a bad flinch that he needed to work on. He asked if I thought dummy rounds mixed with live rounds would help cure his problem. I told him I didn't think it would. I bet (and I've seen this) most people's gun would dip if the gun didn't go bang when the hammer dropped. But the difference between a flinch and timing is when the push of the gun happened- pre or post ignition. Pre ignition dip is obviously a flinch. Here was my advise to him- tell me if you think it is wrong...I wanted him to put emphasis on something positive instead of the negative. I told him the only thing to focus on was to keep the front sight on target until the gun goes off. If you do this there is no way you will flinch. If you find the front sight dropping before the bang you know what you did (either that or you blinked and didn't see anything). I guess it's telling him to call his shots but the point I wanted to emphasize is to hold the sights till the recoil tells your muscle memory to do something. IMO flinching isn't binary- there are many levels and many of the good shooters I know will still drop a round low on occasion- the key is to get your shots on target. If they are- there can't be a flinch. There are probably dozens of posts on flinching but wanted to see if you guys thought this advice was sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 (edited) I think we all flinch to some degree. We are holding a controlled explosion in our hand. Being able to control the flinch until the bullet exits the barrel is the key to success. I often have the shooter align the sight and I pull the trigger for them. It amazes them that the round goes exactly where they were aiming. Go figure. Often when they see that a well placed shot is possible it helps quite a bit. I do this exercise for many of the new shooters that I work with. [edit: spelling] Edited December 20, 2010 by sirveyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Iugnut, Interesting take! I like that approach since I see alot of good shooters dipping the last round if the slide fails to lock back etc. Timing it is! I have never heard it put this way and makes complete sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 20, 2010 Author Share Posted December 20, 2010 Iugnut, Interesting take! I like that approach since I see alot of good shooters dipping the last round if the slide fails to lock back etc. Timing it is! I have never heard it put this way and makes complete sense. Matt Burkett and Brian Enos discuss this on the Matt Burkett videos- can't recall which DVD though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagi Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 (edited) i asked my friend one time to double plug... it helped him... Edited December 20, 2010 by Yagi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 While that isn't a bad idea at all, it may be too much to ask of someone who's really having a problem...and even when they try, they're not seeing the front sight for the last instant. Another thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=118139&view=findpost&p=1337795 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10ring Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I had a bad flinch I had to overcome before I got better with a pistol. I was able to work through it by doing A LOT of dry firing, and then using a .22 rimfire pistol. It took a long time and a lot of effort for me to get it under control but I finally did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I would think anything that causes a shooter to gain a new perspective on what happen as they commit to breaking a round is good. flinching can be before during and after... it may be he is using the wrong term for the problem. miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinj308 Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 The dummy round mixed in the mag helped me. I think it just made me wait. Sure I push forward, but it still helped my brain out. Check this out too http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=82124&st=0 Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 (edited) While that isn't a bad idea at all, it may be too much to ask of someone who's really having a problem...and even when they try, they're not seeing the front sight for the last instant. Another thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=118139&view=findpost&p=1337795 This thread is a great resource. I highly recommend it. Nice job, G-man. Edited December 21, 2010 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 Here are Matt Burketts excellent tips in .pdf format (print them and read over and over again) http://www.predatortactical.com/~predatortact498/uploads/tipsandarticles.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 All great reads Gman, Jman. Reading these make me realize there is ALWAYS room for everyone to improve on all this. I know I can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 lugnut, Although I liked your idea - have you confirmed your shooter is not blinking? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 lugnut, Although I liked your idea - have you confirmed your shooter is not blinking? be It was a discussion at the range after we were both leaving. I didn't watch him shoot at that time. An obvious question would have been- "Do you see the sights as your break the shot?" If he is blinking there is no way he would see anything and my approach would still be valid especially if he came back and said- "Hey I"m trying to do what you said but I'm not seeing anything.... or when I do see something the shots aren't where they should be!" Funny thing is.. .there are times when I call my shots pretty good and sometimes I don't. Like when I was shooting my revo strong hand at 7 yds and I was surprised when my POI was 1 ft low! Now I'm sure I was yanking the trigger but I should have noticed that my front sight wasn't there.... hmmm. Teaching is sometimes easier than doing... I swear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 (edited) Actually... I know I don't blink.. at least once I didn't. I had to check! http://s567.photobuc...urrent=dave.jpg http://s567.photobuc...rrent=Dave2.jpg Edited December 21, 2010 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 For a shooter, knowing you are not blinking must become a way of life, in each moment. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 For a shooter, knowing you are not blinking must become a way of life, in each moment. be I think I do blink on occasion. More than I would like. However- I think it almost always happens after the bang and the bullet has left the barrel. I often see a clear front sight till the bang- I often see it move upwards also... but I never see the entire movement of the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Not blinking is definitely something I need to work on...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss_Berg5150 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I too am struggling with this issue. I am new to the practical shooting sports, but not knew to guns, I absolutely loved firing my M-16 in the military yet I cannot for the life if me understand where this flinch comes from. I have tried keeping my front sight steady and focusing on trigger pull, but it seems the more concerned about my accuracy I am the more I flinch, when I'm just running and gunning I'm okay... oh wise ones, please help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) I think your advice is good, the main thing I have found is presenting the information in a way the shooter will understand. The bottom line is, the shooter still needs to be able to press the trigger without disrupting the sights! I like to refer to a flinch as the NOW shot.. We all know its mental, for me, the best drill to practice to overcome anticpation is the ball and dummy drill. If I do the drill and never have any sort of flinch while doing it, I know I can make any shot. The key to perfecting the ball n dummy drill, ie your trigger press, is keeping your eyes open, focusing on the front sight and follow through. Very important too is to accept some wobble and dont try and squeeze the shot off (NOW) when the sight picture is perfect, let it be a surprise. When shooting a double action pistol like a Sig (Its too easy single action), I like to place a penny on the front sight and dry fire double action one handed. This is not easy but will really improve your trigger pull by getting you used to pulling the trigger straight through without disrupting the sights. When you can do 15-20 without the penny falling off, your doing great, (The penny will naturally move and may have to be readjusted, but should not fall off) For me, these two drills have made me a very accurate shooter. Edited January 6, 2011 by Sac Law Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 If you do the ball and dummy or coin on the slide drill perfectly, and use that technique while shooting a match, you'll get good hits, but you'll have really slow splits. When used to get someone to stop a pre-ignition push, it can be handy, but you can't stop with that. Try shooting something like a .20 split and it's not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 If you do these dills enough they become subconscious, so no matter what speed you run n gun at, you will have better trigger control regardless of how much your driving the gun in order to get fast spits. I look at it as a foundation to build upon. By the way, my drill is to balance the penny on the front sight (tails down works better) not on the slide, (too easy). Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I have to agree with the G-man on this. The ball and dummy drill or coin on the slide are great bullseye training techniques but in my opinion don't transmit to high speed shooting very well. More important, in my humble opinion, is that the shooter fires without blinking and actually consciously sees the position of the sights at the instant of firing (sees the sights lift). If one doesn't blink and consciously sees the sights lift, the person will also see the front sight dip immediately before ignition and recognise that pre-ignition push. (I hate the word flinch) The mind is an amazing computer and will try to correct the pre-ignition push (If it sees it) by delaying the subconscious muscle contraction the mind uses to compensate for recoil. The pre-ignition push becomes a post-ignition push. So don't blink and speed up the conscious mind so it recognizes what the eyes are seeing. The pre-ignition push will start to go away. Don't be surprised if you have to readjust your sights sometime in the future because you are suddenly shooting high. Dwight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) If you do these dills enough they become subconscious, so no matter what speed you run n gun at, you will have better trigger control regardless of how much your driving the gun in order to get fast spits. I look at it as a foundation to build upon. By the way, my drill is to balance the penny on the front sight (tails down works better) not on the slide, (too easy). Good Luck Right, I understand the drill, and it'll teach you trigger control, but totally prevent you from learning how to shoot the gun fast. If you're not driving the gun, post-ignition, you're going to be slow. In other words, this is only one piece of the overall puzzle for shooting fast, and accurately...you have to expand on this with other skill drills. Some guns have narrow slide tops Edited January 7, 2011 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If one doesn't blink and consciously sees the sights lift, the person will also see the front sight dip immediately before ignition and recognise that pre-ignition push. (I hate the word flinch) The mind is an amazing computer and will try to correct the pre-ignition push (If it sees it) by delaying the subconscious muscle contraction the mind uses to compensate for recoil. The pre-ignition push becomes a post-ignition push. Absolutely! I get to work with this on a regular basis (unfortunately). If I see someone has a pre-ignition push, or what looks that way, I'll trick them. I'll say "here, shoot my gun" and hand them my Glock with an Advantage Arms .22LR conversion kit on it. I tell them "it's got some milder ammo in it that will help me see what's happening". The very first shot is almost always "oh, now I see what's been happening"....as soon as they see it, they can fix it. I'll let them get all comfy, then have them go back to their gun...when they pre-ignition push, they'll stop and say (often turning to smile) "okay, I saw that one". Bingo...we have a winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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