Is this a bad idea? 14.5" for 3gun

[Cap]

I've been looking at building/buying a rifle specifically for 3gun. I keep looking at the Noveske Shooting Team rifle for inspiration. First thing I noticed was that its a 16" barrel with a mid length gas system whih sort of contradicts conventional wisdom (18-20 with rifle length gas). This led me to an idea, that might be stupid.

What if instead of a 16" barrel I went with the 14.5" Afghan barrel (another midlength) with a pinned SJC Titan? My idea is that it would yield a slightly shorter overall package with more barrel under the handguard. Similar in concept to the 18" barrel and 15" JP tube. With the 13" Troy TRX haundgaud everything but the comp should be under the gaurd. I'm not sure what the 16" barrels weighs but I imagine it would be a hair lighter as well.

Any thoughts on the subject?

[Bryan 45]

I shoot an M1A with a 22" barrel. Overall length of the rifle is up around 44". I've never shot a stage where I felt disadvantaged by the length of my rifle. If you like a short gun- go for it- but it gives no advantage over something with a 18" tube and another 250+ fps on the little bullets.

Oh yeah, and if you shoot a USPSA match w/ a chrono, you need to be real picky about your ammo. Many of the 55g .223 factory loads do not make minor out of a 14.5".

Edited November 21, 2010 by Bryan 45

[Merlin Orr]

You may be able to do OK but it will be in spite of the length ..... not because of the length...

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

If you are planning on doing room entries or shoot house stages, a shorter rifle does have its advantages in maneuverability in confined spaces. But in a 3-gun match, you’ll hardly ever run into stages set up as such for a rifle. In the open field, a 16” barrel is as maneuverable as a 14.5”. But the shorter the barrel, the less accurate it is for long distance. And like Bryan says, you’ll have to consider the loss of velocity as the bullet will not build up as much speed out of a shorter barrel.

I ran an 11.5” barrel in a local 3-gun match for fun. With 55-grain ball ammo, I found that I had a hard time knocking over a plate rack at 100 yards. I was hitting the plates dead on, but the loss of velocity with the shorter barrel also made for a lesser impact force. I had to hit the top half of the plates to be able to knock them over. I lost time having to do precise aiming on a specific part of a plate.

I think you’ll find that most of the competitors are using 16-18” barrels on their AR.

[twodownzero]

I use a 14.5" and I wouldn't trade it for anything except something even shorter and lighter.

I don't shoot enough multigun to be good.

I've never shot a match where it would be appropriate, desirable, or necessary to have a long barrel. From what I understand, the major multigun matches are different.

Me personally, I want the lightest, shortest, most maneuverable carbine that I can afford to own (legally).

For me, the answer thus far is a 14.5" with a permanent flash hider.

I wish I understood why most people are running such a long and heavy barrel.

There is also no evidence to support that a longer barrel is more accurate. If anything, my intuition suggests that a longer barrel would likely be less accurate.

A longer barrel will shoot the same load at a higher velocity and thus will shoot flatter.

Clubs that have long range steel or a lot of long range shooting might change my mind, but every inch added to the weight of a barrel, especially an HBAR, adds.

[ausshooter]

I placed 19th out of 200+ at the 2010 Larue 3 gun match with a 14.5" LWRC rifle. You need to know your dope. You need to have heavier weight ammunition for longer range (300y+) shots. The majority of rifle shots are 100y and in, and 55gr blasting ammo is more than fine.

YMMV, just my experience.

A

[ausshooter]

If you are planning on doing room entries or shoot house stages, a shorter rifle does have its advantages in maneuverability in confined spaces. But in a 3-gun match, you’ll hardly ever run into stages set up as such for a rifle. In the open field, a 16” barrel is as maneuverable as a 14.5”. But the shorter the barrel, the less accurate it is for long distance. And like Bryan says, you’ll have to consider the loss of velocity as the bullet will not build up as much speed out of a shorter barrel.

I ran an 11.5” barrel in a local 3-gun match for fun. With 55-grain ball ammo, I found that I had a hard time knocking over a plate rack at 100 yards. I was hitting the plates dead on, but the loss of velocity with the shorter barrel also made for a lesser impact force. I had to hit the top half of the plates to be able to knock them over. I lost time having to do precise aiming on a specific part of a plate.

I think you’ll find that most of the competitors are using 16-18” barrels on their AR.

This is very incorrect. The shorter the barrel, the less velocity you will have at long distances. Thus the bullet may be more affected by drop and wind. It has nothing to do with accuracy. I have made standing shots at 325 on an E target with a 10.5" barrel. They are extremely accurate.

If you are having a tough time knocking over a plate at 100y, I would guess that you are missing or hitting the cross bar, not that you aren't hitting the plates. I knocked over a Larue resetting target at 400 yards at our last 3 gun match with a 12.5" barreled AR shooting 55 grain ammunition.

Most folks are using 16-18" guns, mainly because that is what is common and easy to get without spending extra money or getting an ATF stamp.

A

[Stlhead]

I think you should give it a try. I did, I found it to be a disadvantage. Your results might be different, who knows. I started 3 gun by shooting what I already had, a Noveske Afghan. After going to a major match and looking at what the fast guys where all shooting I seemed to noticing a pattern develop. 18 -20" barrels, rifle length gas, and compensators. So I tried a similar rig, it seems to me that the fast guys where on to something. Good luck, keep us informed as to your results.

[smoothdraw]

I had a Noveske 14.5". I got another one which is 18" that I use for multigun. You may need special bullets for 5.56 to meet power factor in multigun. I just saw last week a 16 inch barrel commercial PMC 55gr failed for minor power factor and all of his scores are wiped out ouch!!!. Speed of the bullet will be less in 14.5 barrel and probably will have more recoil of using carbine gas/stock system. But then again I think you already know that.

Another thing with 14.5, I have to weld my break or it becomes NFA. So if you weld that SJC titan in there, you can't use it for tactical training because you'll make all those beside you deaf. It will be loud for sure. It's loud enough in 18 inch barrel.

It will be interesting though how the SJC Titan will tame a 14.5 carbine system.

[smokshwn]

There are certainly different matches that lend themselves to a short setup and then there are definitely matches that lend themselves to a longer gun. Having a 16" gun could be reasonable but why the 14.5", you gain little if any and yet invite all kinds of potential power factor and ballistic challenges into the picture.

Three and half inches (difference betwen 14.5 and 18) gains you very little with respect to maneuverability but it can be a significant liability when you are shooting in the wind at distance heavy matches like MGM or RM3G.

I respect the idea of folks trying to buck the status quo, but this game is a already a competitive endeavor and oftentimes the status quo is there because it has proven to be a solid competitive advantage.

[Cap]

The Afghan is a mid-length like the Noveske Team Rifle, it's just 1.5" shorter. I wouldnt dare try it with a carbine. I've heard the Noveske barrels are "fast" barrels and generally get more FPS than your average SS barrel, and was hoping that would make up the loss in velocity from the shorter barrel.

Pinning the comp really isn't that big a deal to me. I have other ARs for tactical training use. They all wear PWS FSC comps with threads for my YHM suppressor. Push come to shove, I have a registered SBR that i could swap uppers on. If the PWS comp worked as well as the Titan or other breaks I probably wouldnt build andother AR at all.

: Deleted IMG for better pic:

Current setup and parts awaiting install

Current comp

In fact here is a fairly recent picture of my current "go to" AR that I've been shooting in 3gun. ( Really bad picture but you get the idea.) I've taken the light and the AFG off of it. It has a 12" DD lite rail under the rail covers and I have a PRS stock and a Swarovski z6i waiting to be installed to replace the Eotech/magnifier set-up and the CTR stock. The barrel is a mid-length 16" Shilen blank profiled and chambered by WOA. The trigger is a RRA 2-stage.

That being said, with the addition of the PRS and the z6i, would it even be worthwile for a novice shooter to build another (competition specific) rifle? If I do the z6i will stay with the competition gun along with the PRS. My other thought has been to swap the rail for something like the Troy TRX extreme which weighs less and shoot it untill I find that the comp/recoil are holding my back. I have a heavy buffer in it now and it shoots reasonably smooth, but not as nicely as some other that I have shot.

Thanks for your help.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Cap

[Cap]

There are certainly different matches that lend themselves to a short setup and then there are definitely matches that lend themselves to a longer gun. Having a 16" gun could be reasonable but why the 14.5", you gain little if any and yet invite all kinds of potential power factor and ballistic challenges into the picture.

Three and half inches (difference betwen 14.5 and 18) gains you very little with respect to maneuverability but it can be a significant liability when you are shooting in the wind at distance heavy matches like MGM or RM3G.

I respect the idea of folks trying to buck the status quo, but this game is a already a competitive endeavor and oftentimes the status quo is there because it has proven to be a solid competitive advantage.

Excellent point, I had that about that and you are probably right. I have a tendancy to "think outside the box" but sometimes it's probably best to stay inside it.

Woulda looked freakin SWEET though

Still kinda curious about my above post (build or shoot what I have)

[jwfuhrman]

Ive been running a 16in BCM SS410 upper topped with a Burris XTR 1-4 all year for multigun. Using 55gr XM193 I had no problem out to 350yds at the last 3gun at Wildcat Valley in Brookston, Indiana. Targets were MGM Flash Targets.

I plan on over the winter building a dedicated 3gun Rifle, so my 16in can return to being topped with my 3-9x40 scope for the "RECCE" type I originally built it for. Im going with a BCM SS410 18in with Rifle Gas for barrel, and I havent decided on what Comp Im going to use. Ive used SJC comps before, and they are just WAY to loud, I have to double up on hearing protection and its still overwhelming....and Im partially deaf.

Just know your dope, and you'll do fine.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Jon Fuhrman

[Cap]

The rifle I posted aboe was originally intended to be a RECCE. It just lends itself well to 3gun andsince I'm new to the competition arena its what I have and it's what Ive been shooting.

I did notice what your saying about the Titan, I was next to Tod Litt's at a match a couple weeks ago and it was deffinately loud. I all but refuse to wear muffs when shooting rifles (plugs only because of cheak weld issues) so that is a consideration.

[smokshwn]

Cap

Since you already have the carbine length gun and setup I would shoot it as is. Like most of us, you will probably benefit a whole lot more from developing skills than any of the gear purchases we make

If/when you decide to build a rifle, build the rifle length setup and then you will have good first hand evidence of what setup suits you the best.

[Cap]

I should have mentioned that the current gun is also mid-length. Which I'm sure doesn't change your advice, and probably only makes it better for me.

[smokshwn]

Absolutely....if your current gun is a middy, mount up that Z6 and shoot the hell out of it.

[ummagawd]

I must have missedthis thread as I just started a similar topic.

Anyways... I have a bcm 14.5" middy setup with a 13" trx vtac HG. also sporting a battle comp... And h3 buffer

Due to funds... This is all I really have to work with for now.

This was my first rifle so i have nothing to compare in terms of how it shoots. The gun only moves back...

Also never done a multigun match so i have no idea about power factors.

I guess il just do it for fun and not to compete and see what happens.

[Alaskapopo]

I have used my 14.5 inch Noveske N4 for the last three years of three gunning on the state level. (smaller matches) I went to Larue last year and it was fun but the experience on some of the longer stages made me want a bit more velocity and accuracy. So now I have a 18 inch Noveske Rogue hunter. Inside 300 yards I feel just fine with my short gun. But for longer stuff your better off with something a bit longer I believe.

Pat

Old (still my work gun)

New (my fun gun)

Edited November 23, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[kellyn]

What is it with the obsession with shorter barrels? The top shooters can have whatever they want. Don't you think DSA and JP would get a me a 10.5 in barrel if that is what I needed? Do you think S&W won't pony up $200 for Jerry's tax stamp or that the Army won't let Horner shoot with an M4 length barrel? No, it that most of the top shooters are simply not interested in the shorties because they are actually a disadvantage for the vast majority of 3 gun.

The winners will mostly continue to shoot 18 or 20 in rifles as long as we are shooting the AR platform.

[Alaskapopo]

What is it with the obsession with shorter barrels? The top shooters can have whatever they want. Don't you think DSA and JP would get a me a 10.5 in barrel if that is what I needed? Do you think S&W won't pony up $200 for Jerry's tax stamp or that the Army won't let Horner shoot with an M4 length barrel? No, it that most of the top shooters are simply not interested in the shorties because they are actually a disadvantage for the vast majority of 3 gun.

The winners will mostly continue to shoot 18 or 20 in rifles as long as we are shooting the AR platform.

I think part of the reason is people don't realize just how light you can make a 18 to 20 inch gun with the new rails like the Troy Extreme battle rail. They think shorter is lighter and easier to handle. My new 18 inch Noveske is one of the best handling rifles I have owned so far. I was stubborn at first but I have come to accept that you guys (top shooters) know what your talking about when it comes to gear that works.

Pat

[smoothdraw]

+1 to PAT. So going back to the original question...Is this a bad idea? 14.5" for 3gun -YES!!!!

Anybody have any data on how many 14.5" barrel rifle used in the Multigun Nationals? In Area 6 championship I did not see anybody that have 14.5". I saw some 16" and the only 16" rifle in my group failed in the chrono. Did not meet the minor Power Factor for rifles.... All scores gone..... :-(

What is it with the obsession with shorter barrels? The top shooters can have whatever they want. Don't you think DSA and JP would get a me a 10.5 in barrel if that is what I needed? Do you think S&W won't pony up $200 for Jerry's tax stamp or that the Army won't let Horner shoot with an M4 length barrel? No, it that most of the top shooters are simply not interested in the shorties because they are actually a disadvantage for the vast majority of 3 gun.

The winners will mostly continue to shoot 18 or 20 in rifles as long as we are shooting the AR platform.

I think part of the reason is people don't realize just how light you can make a 18 to 20 inch gun with the new rails like the Troy Extreme battle rail. They think shorter is lighter and easier to handle. My new 18 inch Noveske is one of the best handling rifles I have owned so far. I was stubborn at first but I have come to accept that you guys (top shooters) know what your talking about when it comes to gear that works.

Pat

[sierra77mk]

Yes it is a bad idea.

I have never seen anyone win a match or stage running anything under 16".

I have seen SBR shooters completely zero stages because they were using the wrong tool (12-14.5" with aimpoints or eotech).

Others said it. 3-gun is not CQB.