RO Screw Up

[sperman]

I almost screwed up in a very similar fashion just yesterday.

I finished a stage on one knee at a low port, and had reloaded as I was going down. At ULSC I grabed the mag on the ground, stood up, and put it in my back pocket. Since I always drop the mag in the gun and put it in my back pocket before retracting the slide to eject the round in the chamber, I guess the "habit" part had been satisfied. I proceeded directly to ejecting the live round without dropping the partially loaded mag that was in gun.

Thankfully I also hold the slide open for me and the RO to both see the chamber is clear. That's when I saw the live rounds in the mag through the ejection port. I'm very glad I wasn't on autopilot with the routine. I would have been mortified to light one off at "Hammer down".

Close call...

I know lots of shooters, including at least one national champion, that show the camber to the RO, but never bother to look at it themselves.

[twodownzero]

I had the same thing happen to a shooter I was running last month.

The shooter dropped the slide and pulled the trigger before I even gave the "if clear, hammer down, holster" command.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.

[Flexmoney]

An RM once told me he would not say anything, even if he saw the mag still in. In other words, he would let the shooter DQ himself. I disagree with that. I may issue safety warning at any time...if I see that the mag hasn't been dropped, I have an will say so.

JT

Yeah, I agree...seems kinda why we do the whole thing in the first place. I mean, sure we want to make sure the gun is clear for leaving the cof, but we can also help to see that it is clear as the shooter is showing clear. Two sets of eyeballs are better than one, especially with safety.

Seems like a great use of the safety warning.

Of course...IF we can catch it. Too many shooters...whether they are trying to be all speedy or not...tend to "...show clear" and then proceed onto the "hammer down" portion of the show all on their own. They have a second set of free eyeballs (RO) right there at their disposal. It's a shame to get DQ'd for not utilizing them.

With that in mind, I will state what I usually do when done shooting...

I unload...then I retract the slide another time and I look into the chamber area...I then will either show the RO the empty chamber while continuing to hold the slide back or I will rack it one more cycle and hold it back for the RO...once the RO then gives the 'If clear hammer down..." command...I will then cycle the slide another couple of times and give it another look myself before pointing a safe direction and dropping the hammer.

If fact, I probably need to make that routine even more routine.

[twodownzero]

I have a similar routine, Flex.

Drop mag, rack, lock slide open, look into chamber...hold gun over shoulder until RO gives "if clear..." then drop slide, hammer, and holster.

As an RO, I always try to see a clear chamber as well. The speed demons end up showing me their clear chamber again, hammer down or not.

[Gary Stevens]

If the round comes close enough I sometimes snatch it out of the air having never moved my eyes from the gun. ~

An RM once told me he would not say anything, even if he saw the mag still in. In other words, he would let the shooter DQ himself. I disagree with that. I may issue safety warning at any time...if I see that the mag hasn't been dropped, I have an will say so.

JT

That disappoints me.

[Gary Stevens]

I started shooting before 40 Cal was popular?.( in use ) . When it came out I had 3 different shooters, have AD's at the time at ULASC. The rounds went off when they hit the ejector. The first , the shooter had covered the ejection port with his hand and had to have the pieces of brass from the AD dug out of his hand. After that I learned to stay behind the shooter until he/she was holding the slide open/back to show clear. The next two were harmless to the shooter and the RO (ME) as the shooter held the gun up, and I was behind them as they ejected the round in the chamber, after dropping the mag , and as they were ULASC the round went off and all material from the AD went away from both of us. As a survival technique, I stay behind the shooter during ULASC and if necessary will ask to see clear until its Clear . I will not watch the round come out , I will not catch the round coming out. I don't care what is happing anywhere else on the range until I see clear.

That seems to work for me.

May have been called an AD at the time it happened, but under current rules these are not AD's unless the bullet goes through the barrel. Just trying to be clear and correct.

[aztecdriver]

My placement of the drop mag at the end is under my arm. It's like my wallet - if it's not where I think it should be - I get uncomfortable. If my mag isn't up under my pit - I didn't drop it from the gun.

[kmca]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and it gave rise to another question. The "unload and show clear" statement seems to put some of the responsibility of the clear condition on the RO. The next statement "if clear, hammer down" seems to put the responsibility back fully on the shooter. If there is an AD, by the first statement, should the RO be held somewhat responsible (assuming the shooter did show clear)? I don't think so. By the second statement, the responsibility is purely on the shooter. I do know the shooter has the ultimate responsibility,

[JThompson]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and it gave rise to another question. The "unload and show clear" statement seems to put some of the responsibility of the clear condition on the RO. The next statement "if clear, hammer down" seems to put the responsibility back fully on the shooter. If there is an AD, by the first statement, should the RO be held somewhat responsible (assuming the shooter did show clear)? I don't think so. By the second statement, the responsibility is purely on the shooter. I do know the shooter has the ultimate responsibility,

The commands were changed specifically to put the onus on the shooter.

JT

Edited November 15, 2010 by JThompson

[kmca]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and it gave rise to another question. The "unload and show clear" statement seems to put some of the responsibility of the clear condition on the RO. The next statement "if clear, hammer down" seems to put the responsibility back fully on the shooter. If there is an AD, by the first statement, should the RO be held somewhat responsible (assuming the shooter did show clear)? I don't think so. By the second statement, the responsibility is purely on the shooter. I do know the shooter has the ultimate responsibility,

The commands were specifically changed to put the onus on the shooter.

JT

Thanks, that's what I thought.

[Maksim]

Becoming a new RO just recently, and as a shooter, I see it the other way a bit. The RO is not DQ'ing anyone. the shooter DQ's himself. It is if the RO is going to stop the shooter from Dq'ing himself that is at issue here.

As long as the gun is safely down range... and that is what the RO's responsibility is.... if the shooter flies through the IYAFUASC, ICHDH... and has a negligent discharge... why is it your fault? Only the shooters. DQ them there.

As a shooter, I cannot stand sloppy RO's... for instance... if it is a longer stage and I am done shooting, yet you are still 30 feet away from me, then have to wait for you to get your lazy bum over. Worst yet.... like at this weekends match, an RO whose commands were varied every time he ran me.... going from "slide forward, hammer down, line is safe." to "Unload, drop hammer holster." to best of all, no commands at all and just says "line is safe".

Rulebook is fairly clear... If the shooter is obviously new, I will go through the commands one by one, as most new shooters will wait for your commands anyway, but if it is an experienced shooter, unless I see something completely warning me, or I am not sure... I am not going to irritate the shooter more simply because I was a lazy RO and not doing my job watching the gun and the shooter.

[Flexmoney]

Feel better? LOL

[JThompson]

Becoming a new RO just recently, and as a shooter, I see it the other way a bit. The RO is not DQ'ing anyone. the shooter DQ's himself. It is if the RO is going to stop the shooter from Dq'ing himself that is at issue here.

As long as the gun is safely down range... and that is what the RO's responsibility is.... if the shooter flies through the IYAFUASC, ICHDH... and has a negligent discharge... why is it your fault? Only the shooters. DQ them there.

As a shooter, I cannot stand sloppy RO's... for instance... if it is a longer stage and I am done shooting, yet you are still 30 feet away from me, then have to wait for you to get your lazy bum over. Worst yet.... like at this weekends match, an RO whose commands were varied every time he ran me.... going from "slide forward, hammer down, line is safe." to "Unload, drop hammer holster." to best of all, no commands at all and just says "line is safe".

Rulebook is fairly clear... If the shooter is obviously new, I will go through the commands one by one, as most new shooters will wait for your commands anyway, but if it is an experienced shooter, unless I see something completely warning me, or I am not sure... I am not going to irritate the shooter more simply because I was a lazy RO and not doing my job watching the gun and the shooter.

Hmmm. You have some pretty strong views having been in the USPSA for a couple months with no classification or certifications. I'm not ragging on you, I just think you may want to earn some chops in the sport and then get our attitude.

[Pat Miles]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and it gave rise to another question. The "unload and show clear" statement seems to put some of the responsibility of the clear condition on the RO. The next statement "if clear, hammer down" seems to put the responsibility back fully on the shooter. If there is an AD, by the first statement, should the RO be held somewhat responsible (assuming the shooter did show clear)? I don't think so. By the second statement, the responsibility is purely on the shooter. I do know the shooter has the ultimate responsibility,

If the RO uses the complete "unload and show clear" statement which is preceded by "If you are finished" the responsibility belongs to the shooter from the very beginning of that particular range command.

Pat

[CZinSC]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and it gave rise to another question. The "unload and show clear" statement seems to put some of the responsibility of the clear condition on the RO. The next statement "if clear, hammer down" seems to put the responsibility back fully on the shooter. If there is an AD, by the first statement, should the RO be held somewhat responsible (assuming the shooter did show clear)? I don't think so. By the second statement, the responsibility is purely on the shooter. I do know the shooter has the ultimate responsibility,

If the RO uses the complete "unload and show clear" statement which is preceded by "If you are finished" the responsibility belongs to the shooter from the very beginning of that particular range command.

Pat

I agree with you, however, I will go a little further and say, the responsibility belongs to the shooter when they show up to shoot the match. No one is responsible for your gun but you. If it goes bang at the wrong time, it's your responsibility, no one elses.

BTW, Scott, I was thinking of shooting that match, so on Sunday I was looking at the results for sh*ts and giggles, and noticed the DQ. My first thought was "what the heck did he do?". Because like you stated, I've shot with him a number of times and would absolutely consider him a safe shooter. Sucks that he DQ'd, but I wouldn't beat yourself up over it.

[sperman]

The shooter is responsible for the gun, but the RO is in charge of safety on the range. IMO, anytime a round is fired unintentionally, there is potential for something bad to happen. I will always do everything I can to try and keep that from happening.

[Maksim]

Becoming a new RO just recently, and as a shooter, I see it the other way a bit. The RO is not DQ'ing anyone. the shooter DQ's himself. It is if the RO is going to stop the shooter from Dq'ing himself that is at issue here.

As long as the gun is safely down range... and that is what the RO's responsibility is.... if the shooter flies through the IYAFUASC, ICHDH... and has a negligent discharge... why is it your fault? Only the shooters. DQ them there.

As a shooter, I cannot stand sloppy RO's... for instance... if it is a longer stage and I am done shooting, yet you are still 30 feet away from me, then have to wait for you to get your lazy bum over. Worst yet.... like at this weekends match, an RO whose commands were varied every time he ran me.... going from "slide forward, hammer down, line is safe." to "Unload, drop hammer holster." to best of all, no commands at all and just says "line is safe".

Rulebook is fairly clear... If the shooter is obviously new, I will go through the commands one by one, as most new shooters will wait for your commands anyway, but if it is an experienced shooter, unless I see something completely warning me, or I am not sure... I am not going to irritate the shooter more simply because I was a lazy RO and not doing my job watching the gun and the shooter.

Hmmm. You have some pretty strong views having been in the USPSA for a couple months with no classification or certifications. I'm not ragging on you, I just think you may want to earn some chops in the sport and then get our attitude.

Yes, new to USPSA. Not new to firearms or other organized events... mostly Rifle nra and cmp matches. I help setup and tear down every match I attend, through my local forum, which I run, I have introduced at least 15 new USPSA members in my short stint with the bug. Granted I only have 7 matches under my belt, I feel I have done more for the sport at this early stage than many of the local experienced shooters.

I shoot with a very experienced group most of the time, and shoot at every match within 2 hours.

It really isnt all about my attitude on the range, but rather due to lack of people taking personal responsibility.

The RO doesnt DQ you, the shooter DQ's themselves.

and thank you.... I do feel ALOT better. =)

[outerlimits]

Yep-gay. I always ask to see that chamber adtwr a speed unload.

[JThompson]

Becoming a new RO just recently, and as a shooter, I see it the other way a bit. The RO is not DQ'ing anyone. the shooter DQ's himself. It is if the RO is going to stop the shooter from Dq'ing himself that is at issue here.

As long as the gun is safely down range... and that is what the RO's responsibility is.... if the shooter flies through the IYAFUASC, ICHDH... and has a negligent discharge... why is it your fault? Only the shooters. DQ them there.

As a shooter, I cannot stand sloppy RO's... for instance... if it is a longer stage and I am done shooting, yet you are still 30 feet away from me, then have to wait for you to get your lazy bum over. Worst yet.... like at this weekends match, an RO whose commands were varied every time he ran me.... going from "slide forward, hammer down, line is safe." to "Unload, drop hammer holster." to best of all, no commands at all and just says "line is safe".

Rulebook is fairly clear... If the shooter is obviously new, I will go through the commands one by one, as most new shooters will wait for your commands anyway, but if it is an experienced shooter, unless I see something completely warning me, or I am not sure... I am not going to irritate the shooter more simply because I was a lazy RO and not doing my job watching the gun and the shooter.

Hmmm. You have some pretty strong views having been in the USPSA for a couple months with no classification or certifications. I'm not ragging on you, I just think you may want to earn some chops in the sport and then get our attitude.

Yes, new to USPSA. Not new to firearms or other organized events... mostly Rifle nra and cmp matches. I help setup and tear down every match I attend, through my local forum, which I run, I have introduced at least 15 new USPSA members in my short stint with the bug. Granted I only have 7 matches under my belt, I feel I have done more for the sport at this early stage than many of the local experienced shooters.

I shoot with a very experienced group most of the time, and shoot at every match within 2 hours.

It really isnt all about my attitude on the range, but rather due to lack of people taking personal responsibility.

The RO doesnt DQ you, the shooter DQ's themselves.

and thank you.... I do feel ALOT better. =)

Rulebook is fairly clear... If the shooter is obviously new, I will go through the commands one by one, as most new shooters will wait for your commands anyway, but if it is an experienced shooter, unless I see something completely warning me, or I am not sure... I am not going to irritate the shooter more simply because I was a lazy RO and not doing my job watching the gun and the shooter.

This needs to change... you don't take it for granted that because this guy has done it a thousand times you can be lax in how you treat them. The guy the OP was talking about proves my point. You had an experienced shooter who went home. Also, you want to be consistent in your range commands and how you pay attention. Granted, I run a new shooter a little more tight,(closer) but otherwise the same as the old hands.

JT

Edited November 16, 2010 by JThompson