Newguy Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 The title of my post says it all. I've been shooting IPSC for about 2 years in L-10 using a Kimber .45 that fits my hand--all the right mods for me. I'm in my mid-50s so this has been a late sport for me. Anyway, I don't seem to be getting anywhere in terms of my scores (or classification). My points in local matches are fine--usually in the top 20-30% of my class but my times are really pathetic. I'm usually the absolute slowest by a WIDE margin (sometimes as much as 20-30 sec. per stage). When I speed up, I drop way too many points and get too many mikes. So I slow down and my times plummet. What's frustrating is that even though I practice a lot, I'm almost exactly where I was last year--no real improvement. I've read Brian's book and it was helpful but it didn't translate into my being faster when the buzzer goes off. I'm left-handed and cross dominant (which I've learned to compensate for by canting the gun). One problem is picking up the sites (I'm hunting around), but even when I seem to pick them up quickly, my times still really suck (the last). When I'm shooting I don't feel slow but then when I hear the times I'm bowled over. BTW, my grip and stance are probably okay, but I still haven't been able to find my natural point of aim. The funny thing is that I'm fast in most other things I do. In IPSC shooting, though, I don't seem to be processing what's going on fast enough--some sort of delay. What''s frustrating is that I see guys who started about the same time and they're approaching B class while I'm still at the bottom. Any help is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Have you thought about some type of personal instruction. they might be able to help pick up on things and help you improve that way.. I found video tape help me analyze my shooting..it showed me where I was wasting time.. Otherwise when i went through my biggest leap of improvement..I was practicing maybe twice a week and shooting a match every weekend...I also worked on specific drills during that time, and worked on taming my jitters.. Good luck..I hope you don;t give up...it'll come to you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Newguy, Doen't give up!! Were do you shoot? Who do you shoot with? Ask for help at matches. There are all kinds of things that can contribute to speed. The most important thing that helps you gain speed is muscle memory. You can read all kinds of posts and books and watch all the videos in the world but if you do not practice these things often enough to do them without thinking then you will be slow. How often do you practice? How often do you dry fire? All these things contribute. You said "When I'm shooting I doen't feel slow" well, I always feel slowest when I shoot my fastest and visa/versa. When you hear someone say "Doen't think" it's because thinking slows you down. Do you remember every action that you went through after you're done shooting a stage? If so then you doen't have a lot stored in you're muscle memory. You should be reacting through a stage instead of performing deliberate actions. How do you stage prep? After you have gone over the stage as many times as will satisfy you do you run it like you preped it? These are all questions that you need to answer to yourself and ask higher classed shooters for advice on. Sight recovery is in grip so if you have difficulty in this area then you need to work on how you hold the gun. So on and so on. The answers are all out there for you so ASK the questions but if you give up you'll never get the answers that you need. I realy hope I have helped and not confused or hindered with this post. I am sure that there are lots of people that you shoot with that would be more than glad to help you. I KNOW that if you shot with the folks I do there's more help than you could take in. Good luck and stick with it if for nothing more than the pure enjoyment of it. My father always told me not to play with guns. Now days he tells me to just play safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Hey Newguy, Do you enjoy the sport? I bet the answer is yes. For that reason dont give up. Where are you located? There maybe someone on the board that can point you to an instructor. I just took a two day class from Beenie Cooley, and I can say it was money well spent. I'm going to take another one on one with a GM in the next couple of weeks. And again it will be money well spent. Untill you get up with a teacher heres your home work. 100 dry fire drills per night for the next 90 days, same for reloads. Practice perfect. Go through all the motions of the draw sight alinment and trigger pull. Make sure no ammo is near by. I bet you money you will show improvement by the end of the 90 days. Also go to the other forums on this board and try the drills. But be sure to get some one on one training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Newguy - I know exactly how you feel. I was THERE! I spent close to 3 years in D class with a .45 single stack. No matter what I did, no matter how much I dry fired and practiced, no matter how much the local guys helped, I just was NOT FAST! Then one day, I was handed an Open gun. Within 3 weeks I advanced to C Class. Honest! The difference in picking up the sights and acquiring targets improved my scores by 30%. Now I could concentrate on my movement, rather than my gun handling. I realize purchasing an Open gun is an expensive option. And it may not be the right choice for you - but for me, I was absolutely HOOKED on the sport and did not want to give up. I wanted to improve and play with the big dogs. I should be totally honest and tell you that I'm STILL in C Class 3 years later :-) However, I spent 2 of those years with my right hand in a cast during the summer, so I wasn't able to shoot at all. But finally I've been able to give the sport the attention that it needs and I'm improving rapidly and even actually competing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sharp Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Newguy, I've been there and here is how I have dealt with this issue. I look at my motives. Why do I compete? Why do I shoot? Why do I dry practice? Why do I need the outside verification of my abilities? Why do I need to be known as an A shooter instead of a B? Can I compete with no thought for the score? Can I shoot one match without regard for anything, grip, stance, sights...., just put the gun between me and the target and let it work? Can I focus only on the perfection of movement and not the time? Those are a few of the internal questions I have asked and acted upon. Hope it helps. btw, the advice about taking a class is spot on as well. Sometimes we need a little tweaking to get over a hurdle. The rest comes down to motive, type and X factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave pasos Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Newguy, its true that an Open gun is alot different than a 45. Only you can decide what route you want to follow. Now this my experience but no matter what gun you use there are some fundentmental that will remain the same with whatever gun you have. And this includes how you shoot a stage whether its entering boxes or doorways etc. its called Economy of Motion. Watch the Burners tapes and you will see that only difference in the manner in which he shoots between the Open and Limited gun is the type of sights hes watching. Without really watching you shoot its hard to say what it is you might need. But I would asking for help from someone who is willing to help, would be your best start. Sometimes this sport can be cruel. As if everyone is on their own trip. But dont give up! We care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Newguy, You didn't mention if you practice with someone...? That can huge... finding someone with a similar temperament and enthusiasm so you can help each other improve. And, do you feel you are appreciably slower in matches than in practice? Stick with it - be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMarine Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 hey, maybe you need to just forget what class you are for a while and just enjoy shooting. I know it's nice to see improvement, but maybe you are trying too hard. The lack of improvement still shouldn't make you enjoy shooting any less, just go out, shoot at YOUR own pace, and enjoy shooting the cool stages and BSing with fellow shooters. Just my .02, but what do I know. I could spend hours shooting at a backstop with no target, been that way since I was 6. You sound like a good guy and this sport needs more good people, just hate to see anyone leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Draw from the success you have had in those other things you do that you go fast or do well. Success is a personal thing but you sounds like you want it, so go get it. Time is important but accuracy must come first. There are many timewasters in a match performance. Find the best shooter in your area and ask them what they see you are doing. Also you can't build Rome in a day unless you are willing to. You see others performance but you never see their hard work and sacrifices before the matches. PS I just got Matt's tapes and think you could probably get a lot of help from them. I have viewed tape 1 and got something from it that I have never seen mentioned anywhere. I also find learning to shoot has been a serious of peaks and troughs, at every level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 First, dont' give up! Agree 100% w/ BE that a good shooting buddy will realy help out since this game will return to being what it should be - entertaining. Next, try new things. I like the idea of open. Do you have a friend who will lend you their open gun for a match? Heck, if you are in area 8, come out to a match and I'll loan you my SV for the day. Got a production gun or revolver? That might be fun. Finally, treat the "competition" more like recreation. I think of a day shooting USPSA sort of like playing golf. I am a total hack at golfing (shooting too for that matter, hmmm) but I still enjoy the game no matter how I do. Sure, its an ego boost to improve my score, but I don't expect to become a Jerry or Brian or Todd or Phil - ever. I just like to shoot - and USPSA offers the chance to shoot real fast AND run (while shooting powerful loads accurately). Hope you choose to stick with the sport! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 NG, often times trying harder does not translate into doing better. Working on the things that will make you better, make you better. Not trying to state the obvious, but...I guess I am. I have been blessed in this life to have several friends who were / are world class athletes. Not one of them is a "natural"...but they look like it *now* because of the years and years and years of just down and dirty hard work. But the one characteristic that is in each of them is they truly LIKE doing what they do. Get back to having fun with that pistol! Treat yourself to some world class instruction for a couple of days. Bet you a steak dinner you will be better at the end of it, and, a second steak that there ain't anything wrong with what you are doing that a good teacher can't correct. Pistol shooting to me is pure gravy, nothing but fun. Can be aggravating fun, yes, but I don't earn a living with my pistol. So, it has to be fun. Remember why you are there to begin with...to have a great time with some of the buddies you would miss the most if *they* decided to quit. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newguy Posted May 15, 2002 Author Share Posted May 15, 2002 Thanks for the support everyone. I guess I'll hang with it and just work harder and more smartly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topstrap Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 Newguy, I had one of the worst matches I think I've ever shot in nearly 25 years of handgun competition last weekend. It appeared I had never had ahold of a handgun before. The gun never malfunctioned, the ammo all went off and I didn't bobble a reload, I just could not hit the targets.... just one of those days. This action type of shooting is new to me also, have only tried it a few times in the past couple of years and have a hard time changing my total style of shooting. I've shot IHMSA silhouette and other extreme long distance handgun since the late 70's, early 80's and we have 2 minutes to fire 5 shots at targets out to 220 yards. I know how to aim and shoot accurately but when that buzzer goes off any game plan I had went up in smoke and it's draw, try to aim quickly and shoot as fast as possible, usually not hitting much and I'm used to hitting stuff 1/4 the size at 100 times the distance. I have a LOT to learn about this type of shooting and plan on watching the guys that know how it's done. I see it's not an easy style to master but lots of practice (good practice) lots of listening and sticking thru the tough times to gain the experience that the others have already gone thru. I felt like sneaking back to the car after a particularly bad run, everyone is watching you and it's hard to hold your head high and walk back from that stage but it's happened to everyone else one time or another. Stick with it, I'm going to do better next time, I'm also going to learn at least one thing at the next match also. The match before I ended up 5th overall so we all can get lucky sometimes. Pay attention, keep the ears open and listen to the guys that offer a suggestion... Now, I have to learn to listen to my own words..... Topstrap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 I started out a couple of summers ago...thinking I kinda knew how to shoot. Boy was I wrong. That was one tough summer. At least I had a nice long drive home after each match to think about how I performed. I decide I must do better. I bought myself a Glock 35(and stuck with that one gun). I started looking for info on shooting action pistol. I think I must have found Matt Burkett's site first. I used his info on grip and stance (my method wasn't working). It took me a lot of dry-fire practice to get somewhat used to the "non-weaver" way of shooting. Not long after that, someone loaned me a copy of a book from Brian Enos (some crazy Grand Zen Master guy). I was a bit pissed after reading it...why hadn't my buddy let me borrow that book sooner?!?! I read that book about a year ago. The four classifiers that I have shot this spring average out to A-class (I need one more). I am certainly not a natural. How ever well I do in this game...the credit goes to the Brian's, the Matt's, and everyone on this board. We share, we bitch, we beat our heads against the wall...but, we keep on learning. Learning is my goal. I hope to improve...but, I must learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock A Roo Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 NewGuy, I must emphatically tell you: you need personal intruction from a qualified teacher. Not someone who just shoots well, but a good shooter who is experienced in _tranferring his knowledge_ and _teaching_ it to someone who doesn't know. At the performance level you describe, you are not advanced enough to be your own coach. Techniques of good action pistol shooting are not natural. No one knows how to do this stuff innately. Some are better equipped to advance their skillset rapidly, of course, but they all must be shown at some point or another. Even the greats like Enos and Leatham were well founded in the fundamentals before they pioneered their now-famous methods for top shooting performance. Get training from a qualified teacher, and save yourself a lot of grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 Newguy, Many have offered good suggestions, and I agree that you shouldn't give up. I will offer what will be an unpopular suggestion: maybe you should try a different shooting sport with less focus on speed, like PPC or bullseye. Of course, if you do, you'll likely still get frustrated. I'm only a marksman class IDPA shooter, and I also tend to score high in the points department (or low in the "points down" dept., in IDPA's case), and it's frustrating trying to learn to shoot faster. In NRA Highpower, I hold Master classification, so you'd think I'd be very satisfied with my performance. Not so. When I shot HP more often, I agonized over the fact that I still shot 8s in the offhand, I couldn't clean the 300 rapid, and never seemed to shoot above 195 at the 600. Mistakes seem costlier, and improvement is harder when you're at that level. The point I'm trying to make is that in the shooting sports (and others, I would expect), you will always want to do better, and always have specific areas where you could improve to accomplish that. Identify goals. Devise training tools to aid in accomplishing them. Train until you achieve them, or, if the program doesn't work, revise it and try again. You are highly unlikely to ever be completely un-frustrated. You are also highly unlikely to have no fun at all shooting IPSC. Now a practical pointer for a quick fix: I always think about every match I shoot in, and what mistakes I made that cost me time. Usually it's a gun handling issue, so when I go home, I recreate the setup, and practice it dry. I've improved my draw, turning draw, reload, reload while kneeling, target transitions, and engaging in tactical sequence this way. I make fewer mistakes, and I'm finishing higher at matches, even though I don't get to do any live fire practice between matches. There are also some live fire drills posted in "tips for improvement" that are supposed to help you shoot faster without losing accuracy. Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 Being as I'm one year away from 50, I'll bet your eyes are betraying you. Within the last few yaers I have lost the ability to focus on the front sights with my distance glasses on. I started using target focus (indirect sighting) and shoot really well that way, but the real breakthrough came when I shot with an UltraDot sighter. That made everything easy... of course, that sticks me in open class. Anyway, don't give up. I too am on the "plateau" phase where improvements are so slight they are barely noticable in the random fluctuations we all get from time to time, but it's still fun to shoot (I'm not quitting until I shoot a perfect 300 at Bullseye: my best so far is 296... those last 4 are so hard to get). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old shooter Posted May 20, 2002 Share Posted May 20, 2002 It looks like you have a lot of good advice, and if I can, let add an opinion or two of mine. First, identify exactly what part of your shooting performance is slow. Is it your draw, split times, reloading, moving. If you can identify the 2 areas that need the most work, you can probably get a few seconds back. Look at your draw, are you keeping your hand on the gun too long before bringing it out of the holster. Are you afraid of shooting yourself if you yank it out of the holster? Do you pass the target with your sights and have to lower the gun to the target before you can shoot. Can you shoot when your sights first hit the target? Is your dryfire draw the same as your competition draw? I guess that what I am trying to say, is to precisely identify your problems, and then work on them. You can't hit the target if you don't know what it is. Also, as I am in my 50's , I have had to have glasses that let me focus about 16-18 inches in front of me. You will be surprised at how many optometrists have fit people for glasses that help focus on their front sight. Good luck, and practice with a purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 20, 2002 Share Posted May 20, 2002 Sorry for the thread drift, but I couldn't help but lol when I saw this on the main forum page: Frustrated and ready to give up..... Started by: Newguy Last post:: old shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newguy Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 Thanks again for the good advice. I wil heed it. After critically analyzing what's happening, I've come to the conclusion that my slowness is mostly due to slow sight acquistion and slow target transitions. It also comes from my compulsiveness about not dropping points. When practicing, I'm acclimating myself to A, C and D hits and my speed is improving (I'm also not getting many mikes). I was practicing for the wrong game--everyone knows IPSC favors speed over accuracy. BTW, I also wasted a LOT of time and ammo practicing without a timer (the Pocket Pro is a big help). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Newguy, Well, you've opened a can of worms with the "IPSC stresses speed over accuracy" statement. I won't go there. I myself suffer the same problem to some extent, though...In a match this last weekend of about 80 rounds, I shot about half a dozen Cs, and the rest As, except for 2 mikes and a no-shoot. I definitely could stand to speed up and accept some Cs, I think. But I do pretty well in IDPA, where accuracy counts more Lata, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 This thread kinda covers the "can of worms" of Speed vs. Accuracy. http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...6&topic=104 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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