westczek Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 I thought I would share some details about 38 Special/Short Colt Starline brass and Hearthco moonclips. The Starline brass has a taller groove above the rim than other brands of brass which accommodates thicker moonclips. The Hearthco moonclips are 0.025 inch thick, which help to reduce wobble. Other moonclips are 0.020 or 0.022 inch. I know everyone knows that already, it's come up more than a few times. However, what I didn't realize before buying them was that that the groove on the brass is also deeper and the Hearthco moonclips also have a larger overall diameter, 1.254 inch. This means the opening for each cartridge on the clip can also be tighter. The Starline brass doesn't reliably stay in my smaller TK Custom 0.022 inch moonclips, those moonclips have a diameter of 1.215 inch. The Starline brass and Hearthco moonclip combination is really nice. Each cartridge rotates easily, but wobbles very very little. Each cartridge is locked in securely. One cautionary note. If you choose to go this route and your cylinder is already cut for a smaller diameter moonclip the Hearthco moonclips may not fit. In that case you will need to get the cylinder machined out a little more. Something to keep in mind before having a cylinder cut. Westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMM50 Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 I've been designing a moon clip for the 8 shot 38/357 and have been wrestling with these exact issues. If you look at the SAAMI case drawings you find that that groove on 38/357 brass is not dimensioned (it's not even referenced). I'm coming to the conclusion that for the 38/357 moon clips are going to be brass specific. That's not a problem if you are aware ahead of time. I've also found Winchester brass has such a small groove it's probably not usable in a moon clip. And Remington seems to have a reasonable groove for use with moon clips. Anyone want to send brass to check I'll be glad to post me results. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 I've been designing a moon clip for the 8 shot 38/357 and have been wrestling with these exact issues. If you look at the SAAMI case drawings you find that that groove on 38/357 brass is not dimensioned (it's not even referenced). I'm coming to the conclusion that for the 38/357 moon clips are going to be brass specific. That's not a problem if you are aware ahead of time. I've also found Winchester brass has such a small groove it's probably not usable in a moon clip. And Remington seems to have a reasonable groove for use with moon clips. Anyone want to send brass to check I'll be glad to post me results. George I think you will find that David Hearth has this all doped out. He always would make moonclips specific to your brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westczek Posted September 24, 2010 Author Share Posted September 24, 2010 I went with the Hearthco moonclips because I got Starline 38 Short Colt brass and found out that the moonclips I already had did hold the Starline Brass. Remington and Federal brass works well with the 0.022 inch thick moonclips of smaller than Hearthco diameter. Winchester brass works with 0.020 inch thick moonclips of the smaller diameter as well. The Hearthco and Starline combination is the most ridged, which works best. However, the 0.022 inch and Remington or Federal is pretty good. The Winchester is more hit or miss. There are other headstamps that match Remington and Federal or match winchester. I even was given some 38 special brass the other day with no groove at all. When it comes to rimmed cartridge brass and moonclips pick one or two compatible headstamps and stick with them. Westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatz Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 Hey Mike, Did you get moonclips for both cylinders? 6 and 7? I found that my 7 shot 586 actually loaded and unloaded faster than my 581 that I had mooncliped....Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westczek Posted September 25, 2010 Author Share Posted September 25, 2010 (edited) Rob, I have both 6 and 7 shot cylinders cut for moonclips. However, the moonclips I have for the 7 shot are 0.020 inch thick and I use them with Rem or Federal brass, so kind of floppy. I have a couple of thicker 7 shot TK Custom moonclips 0.022 inch, they work pretty good, maybe better than the six-shot moonclips of the same thickness. That being said, I have never done much of a head to head comparison between the six and seven shot setups. I only use my seven shot for Steel Challenge, with no on-the-clock reloads, and of course my rare attempt at USPSA open division classification. My new six-shot moonclip setup, Hearthco 0.025 inch thick clips and Starline Short Colt works much better than my other setups. I got to try it out in a match today. As you know, I'm not so fast, but I believe it did help me reduce the fumble factor. The cartridges were all pointing nice and straight and, at least in my mind, the reloads appeared easier. Westczek Edited September 25, 2010 by westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennRasch Posted September 26, 2010 Share Posted September 26, 2010 I thought I would share some details about 38 Special/Short Colt Starline brass and Hearthco moonclips. The Starline brass has a taller groove above the rim than other brands of brass which accommodates thicker moonclips. The Hearthco moonclips are 0.025 inch thick, which help to reduce wobble. Other moonclips are 0.020 or 0.022 inch. I know everyone knows that already, it's come up more than a few times. However, what I didn't realize before buying them was that that the groove on the brass is also deeper and the Hearthco moonclips also have a larger overall diameter, 1.254 inch. This means the opening for each cartridge on the clip can also be tighter. The Starline brass doesn't reliably stay in my smaller TK Custom 0.022 inch moonclips, those moonclips have a diameter of 1.215 inch. The Starline brass and Hearthco moonclip combination is really nice. Each cartridge rotates easily, but wobbles very very little. Each cartridge is locked in securely. One cautionary note. If you choose to go this route and your cylinder is already cut for a smaller diameter moonclip the Hearthco moonclips may not fit. In that case you will need to get the cylinder machined out a little more. Something to keep in mind before having a cylinder cut. Westczek I have a 627 V-Comp that I use the TK Custom clips with Rem. brass ONLY . I'm working on a load with the 38 SC .... the Starline brass seams to work with the TK moonclips. I have a early 90s 686 on the way that I will send to TK to get cut for moonclips. I just found out about the 38 SC a few weeks ago...that is a AWESOME little round. I had to mix and match 9mm and 38/357 dies on my Dillon , but it all worked out. I'm going the the range tomorrow to chronograph some of the 38 SC, I'll let you gays know what numbers I come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westczek Posted September 26, 2010 Author Share Posted September 26, 2010 Lone Star Hydro, I look forward to hearing about your results. The TK Custom 0.022 inch moonclips I have for Remington brass will hold the Starline brass. However, one or two rounds on each moonclip won't really click in and can get knock out easily. I wasn't satisfied that they would stay in place during competition. And I would suspect just as my Remington cases have gotten looser after many reloading, the Starline Brass will also wear and get looser. Just as an aside and I don't know if this matters, I bought the Remington compatible moonclips from Brownell's about two years ago. I also bout the no-name 0.020 inch thick 7 shot clips Brownell's maybe three years ago. I'm not sure about the manufacture of the 7 shot clips, for some reason, but I think they might be Ranch Products. The new Hearthco moonclips I bought from TK Custom's website. Westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennRasch Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Lone Star Hydro, I look forward to hearing about your results. The TK Custom 0.022 inch moonclips I have for Remington brass will hold the Starline brass. However, one or two rounds on each moonclip won't really click in and can get knock out easily. I wasn't satisfied that they would stay in place during competition. And I would suspect just as my Remington cases have gotten looser after many reloading, the Starline Brass will also wear and get looser. Just as an aside and I don't know if this matters, I bought the Remington compatible moonclips from Brownell's about two years ago. I also bout the no-name 0.020 inch thick 7 shot clips Brownell's maybe three years ago. I'm not sure about the manufacture of the 7 shot clips, for some reason, but I think they might be Ranch Products. The new Hearthco moonclips I bought from TK Custom's website. Westczek Tom at TK makes moon clips just for Starline brass. I was using my clips from my REM. brass , and I had the same thing with I or two not sniping in all the way. The Starline has a .035 moon clip, I ordered some today form TK. Any way we went to the range on Sunday and spent about 3 hrs. testing. I got some good start data to work from. Using HP-38 powder and Berry's bullets .......( I shoot 3 rounds of 6 shoots each for me test), here's what I found............... Starline brass w/Federal primers 158 gr. FP 4.1 of HP-38 OAL 1.100 (1) A... 962.4 fps (2) A... 956.8 fps (3) A... 968.6 fps 125 gr. FP 4.1 of HP-38 OAL 1.100 (1) A... 922.6 fps (2) A... 926.7 fps (3) A... 918.8 fps The 125gr. LRN was about the same. NOTE..... when using 38 spl. brass with the same powder , the velocity was 120/150 fps slower... Over all we had a GOOD day, and the 158gr. FP worked the BEST......... Edited September 28, 2010 by Lone Star Hydro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlockCanMan Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I just sent my 686 off for some custom work and they are going to ream the cylinder out for moonclips. I am going to make sure that it is a deep enought cut for the Hearthco moonclips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westczek Posted September 29, 2010 Author Share Posted September 29, 2010 Lone Star Hydro, Glad to hear you found a load that works for you. Seams hot, I'm going for minor, using 9 mm luger loading data. I'm using Solo 1000 and going for a velocity closer to 850 fps. Check your order on the moonclips. The 0.035 inch thickness clips are for 38 Super, which is just about Short Colt on Tom's website. Short Colt is 0.025 inch. Westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 I've been designing a moon clip for the 8 shot 38/357 and have been wrestling with these exact issues. If you look at the SAAMI case drawings you find that that groove on 38/357 brass is not dimensioned (it's not even referenced). I'm coming to the conclusion that for the 38/357 moon clips are going to be brass specific. That's not a problem if you are aware ahead of time. I've also found Winchester brass has such a small groove it's probably not usable in a moon clip. And Remington seems to have a reasonable groove for use with moon clips. Anyone want to send brass to check I'll be glad to post me results. George I think you will find that David Hearth has this all doped out. He always would make moonclips specific to your brass. I cut a clip specific to Starline brass. Most refer to it as Hearthco Shortcolt. Works with all 38 spec Starline brass. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westczek Posted October 1, 2010 Author Share Posted October 1, 2010 Dave, So not reveal any proprietary information, am I right that its not just the thickness of your moonclips, but also the larger diameter which allows them to securely hold the Starline Brass? Westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMM50 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Hi: Not giving away any trade secretes. It seems that the thickness of the groove cut in the brass and the thickness of the moon clips are the two biggest factors in how 'well' the bases fit into the clips. Then the size of the opening in the clips and the size of the groove in the clips determine how easily they go together and come apart. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Dave, So not reveal any proprietary information, am I right that its not just the thickness of your moonclips, but also the larger diameter which allows them to securely hold the Starline Brass? Westczek I only use .025 mat'l for my 38 special clips. The groove dia for the starline clips is tighter to match the groove diameter of the starline brass. No real secret that cant be discovered with good calipers. The secret to making great clips is wire edm. The edm process is 10 times more capable than necessary to consistantly manufacture high quality moonclips. The other processes that are utilized to manufacture moonclips are not. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtorre Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) Jefes, I have a PC SW 627 V-Comp. I have a plethora of starline 38 SC brass, I just purchased. Can the hearthco moon clips fit my pistola with the overall diameter of 1.254 inch ?.. I am at your mercy... a pinata of thanks in advance Edited February 9, 2011 by bobtorre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westczek Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Bobtorre, The original post was about moonclips for a 6-shot L-frame (686). I have no experience with the 8-shot N-frame (627). Westczek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Jefes, I have a PC SW 627 V-Comp. I have a plethora of starline 38 SC brass, I just purchased. Can the hearthco moon clips fit my pistola with the overall diameter of 1.254 inch ?.. I am at your mercy... a pinata of thanks in advance I don't know about the overall diameter. But I have and shoot the same gun and the Hearthco clips - Starline Short colt brass combo is all I use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Jefes, I have a PC SW 627 V-Comp. I have a plethora of starline 38 SC brass, I just purchased. Can the hearthco moon clips fit my pistola with the overall diameter of 1.254 inch ?.. I am at your mercy... a pinata of thanks in advance I don't know about the overall diameter. But I have and shoot the same gun and the Hearthco clips - Starline Short colt brass combo is all I use. David's Starline short colt moon clips fit all 4 of my 627s manufactured over the years. The bonus is dealing with Mr. Hearth, master of the universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtorre Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Jefes, I am eternally greateful for your intellect and level of education. Thanks for the answers and for your fast response.... I shall order my moonclips from Mr. Hearthco promptly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4406pak Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I just found out about the 38 SC a few weeks ago...that is a AWESOME little round. I had to mix and match 9mm and 38/357 dies on my Dillon , but it all worked out. Do you reload 38 Short Colt on a Dillon XL650? If so, did you have to use a 9mm powder funnel due to the shortness of the case? Also, did you have to change the colored plastic tube on the casefeeder at all or does the 38 Special one work? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3P_Guy Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Not sure on the casefeeder part, but we use the 9mm powder funnel and a 9mm Dillon crimp die with our short colts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Keith, I don't know about the 650 CF system, but the 1050 and the 550 casefeeders require the 9mm adapter (the colored part at the bottom of the clear drop tube - I recall the 9mm is green and the 38 Special is orange) drilled out to 0.50" to fit the rim of the Short Colt. I taped off a portion of the 38 Special adapter opening when I started loading SCs, but the drilled out 9mm adapter works better for me. Will we see you at the ICORE matches this weekend in Monson, MA on Sunday or Watervleit, NY on Sunday? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Gonsalves Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 For Short Colt in my 650 I ended up using a .38 super powder funnel, as that's what I had at midnight when I decided to set it up. I believe I'm using a .38 super or .40 case feed adaptor, again as that's what i had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4406pak Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Keith, Will we see you at the ICORE matches this weekend in Monson, MA on Sunday or Watervleit, NY on Sunday? Craig Craig, thanks for the tips and send me the info on those matches! I'm getting a 627 V-Comp ready for shooting Open class at the PSA Shootout in late April. Down the road I'd like to get classified in ICORE. Unfortunately there's no local ICORE scene so it's tough. One of our clubs is considering getting ICORE going though... *fingers crossed* For Short Colt in my 650 I ended up using a .38 super powder funnel, as that's what I had at midnight when I decided to set it up. I believe I'm using a .38 super or .40 case feed adaptor, again as that's what i had. You are correct Brian. Dillon responded back to me with this: You should use the purple case feed adapter for 40 S&W, due to the shortness of the 38 Short Colt case. Other parts are fine.Thank you, Dillon Precision Products, Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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