Cash Prize option

[bkeeler]

Would you play a class option for a cash payout in your Class/Division?

Here is how it would work:

Make a cash payout a Class/Division option. Say the match fee is $60.00 (or what ever the match fee is) make an option on the app for say $20.00 (this could be less) this $20.00 goes to a pool for the Class/Division purse the person is in.

Example: I am in A class/Limited and take the $20.00 option (which you pay when you send in your app) say 5 other people in A class/Limited also take the option so now there is $120.00 in the pool for "A" Class/Limited. the payout would be:

3 or less 100% to winner

4 to 7 60/40

8 to 11 50/30/20

12 or more 40/30/20/10

The example above payout would be 1st A Class would get $72.00 and 2nd would get $48.00.

So if there are 10 shooters in A Class Limited only 6 took the option only these 6 are eligible for the prize money in A Class Limited.

You do not have to take the option the more shooters that do take the option the higher the purse in that Class/Division.

You are only shooting against the people that take the option in your Class/Division for the prize money.

Edited August 9, 2010 by bkeeler

[bkeeler]

If there was a prize table you would still get a prize from the prize table plus the cash prize if you played the option. If the match had trophies/plaques you would also get one of those if you placed high enough in your class. The cash option is just that an option to win cash in your class/division. We are not going to get rich from shooting, just an opportunity to offset some of the expense. The above example the match would cost $80.00 total if I took the class option and I won my class/division against the other shooters that also took the option the match fee only cost me $8.00.

[bkeeler]

If you answer no please explain why. Thank you.

[bkeeler]

BTT

[Joe4d]

you keep saying "class/division" but make no mention of division. I voted maybe, but now change to No, more trouble than it is worth. A system like this will reward sandbaggers, I doubt you would get much participation. People keep saying they go to shoot not for prizes, I assume those people would pay less to shoot the same match.

[bkeeler]

you keep saying "class/division" but make no mention of division. I voted maybe, but now change to No, more trouble than it is worth. A system like this will reward sandbaggers, I doubt you would get much participation. People keep saying they go to shoot not for prizes, I assume those people would pay less to shoot the same match.

I did mention about division in my example. Division is Limited and Class was A. Works the same if you are a GM and shooting in Open division, say you had 5GM's in open and they played the option that is $100.00 in the pool for GM open shooters. I am kinda thinking the same way as you as far as participation. When I go to a match I go to shoot not because it is a big prize table but I think the Class option is just a bonus if you wanted to play. You are always going to have sandbagging but I don't think it is as prominent as everyone thinks. Looking at scores from a few of the bigger matches seems like every ones scores fall into there Class looking at 2010 A3 Limited, The B class winner was at 75.XX% of the GM Limited Division winner so he is pretty close to his classification (high B class shooter on the edge of A Class maybe). I am just rambling now:roflol: Thanks for the input!

[steel1212]

I think what you'll find is the higher classes in a division would do it as they are less afraid of sandbaggers. The lower classes might but they would have to deal with sandbaggers taking the $$$ a lot of the time and it would get old. I voted yes but, well I'm trying to get HOAs now anyway.

[WDB]

A system like this will reward sandbaggers, I doubt you would get much participation. People keep saying they go to shoot not for prizes, I assume those people would pay less to shoot the same match.

Hit the nail on the head.

[EkuJustice]

I have shot other sports with the money added and certain shoots were breeding grounds for sandbagging. One in particular gave a 1100 sporting clays gun for class winners in 12 ga and like 6 cases of ammo+money for the small GA. Guy came in with a sub 80 ave across the board on targes he shot like a week before the match and was shooting in D and E class which is as low as the classes go. Cleaned house across the board with scores in the mid-upper 90s. The next year he shot some more targets only and kept the average way low again and did the exact same thing. On and he was shooting Master Class in sporting clays as well. The idea was good to spread the wealth across the board but in reality,the only ones who had a chance were the top shooters and the sandbaggers.

[wide45]

What happens if a participant gets bumped up in class after signing up? Sounds like a lot of work to keep track of everyone.

[bkeeler]

What happens if a participant gets bumped up in class after signing up? Sounds like a lot of work to keep track of everyone.

No different than any other match he shoots in the class he just got bumped to.

You have to keep track of the shooters that signed up for the option for the cash payout on a separate sheet not all shooters will play the option. Running a match is a lot of work. I would rather do this than try and set up a prize table or random prize bags.

Edited August 10, 2010 by bkeeler

[steel1212]

What happens if a participant gets bumped up in class after signing up? Sounds like a lot of work to keep track of everyone.

No different than any other match he shoots in the class he just got bumped to.

I think the pay out is easy, you hand checks to those that signed up that get plaques pretty much, if they signed up and put in for the cash option.

[shooterbenedetto]

How about just playing high hit factor per stage! say $5.00 or more per stage..

[bkeeler]

[

I think the pay out is easy, you hand checks to those that signed up that get plaques pretty much, if they signed up and put in for the cash option.

Bingo!

[Charles Bond]

Once upon a time we paid back cash in the Area 6 Handgun. It sounds like a simple process until you actually do it. For purposes of illustration let us say that the prize money is $10 per shooter and remember you have to pay 5 classes. If 49% are limited, 20 open, 20% production, 10% L10 and 10% revolver, you allocate the prize money into class. You then make a decision as to how much goes to HOA and if you are going to pay categories and if you pay one category you have to pay them all. Then you further divide what is left into class within each division by percentages and keep in mind you have to do this for all of the divisions.

to make a long story short you have to spend about 4 hours doing the math and writing the checks and since it is wise to say you can only get one check, the paperwork is further complicated. And then you get the moans that come from the high A limited shooter getting a larger check than the person who was HOA in production because you allocated it according to division and class or that the 2nd B Limited shooter might get a larger pay out than the 1st limited master.

Once at this task was enough for me. Yes you can give specific cash payouts for HOA in each division but all that does is push shooters into the smaller divisions on the belief that they have a better chance walking away with a check there.

This is not a process I endorse.

[bkeeler]

Once upon a time we paid back cash in the Area 6 Handgun. It sounds like a simple process until you actually do it. For purposes of illustration let us say that the prize money is $10 per shooter and remember you have to pay 5 classes. If 49% are limited, 20 open, 20% production, 10% L10 and 10% revolver, you allocate the prize money into class. You then make a decision as to how much goes to HOA and if you are going to pay categories and if you pay one category you have to pay them all. Then you further divide what is left into class within each division by percentages and keep in mind you have to do this for all of the divisions.

to make a long story short you have to spend about 4 hours doing the math and writing the checks and since it is wise to say you can only get one check, the paperwork is further complicated. And then you get the moans that come from the high A limited shooter getting a larger check than the person who was HOA in production because you allocated it according to division and class or that the 2nd B Limited shooter might get a larger pay out than the 1st limited master.

Once at this task was enough for me. Yes you can give specific cash payouts for HOA in each division but all that does is push shooters into the smaller divisions on the belief that they have a better chance walking away with a check there.

This is not a process I endorse.

Nothing is payed to HOA. Unless the shooter that won HOA played the cash option. I think people are getting confused. You are betting on yourself against shooters with the same classification as you and in the same division.. The cash pool is built on how many people actually play the option in your given class and division. Sure the payout will be different for every class depending on how many shooters play the option in each class. This is an option you do not have to play!

Example:

GM Open 5 shooters only 2 play the option only these 2 can win the cash which would be $40.00 (that these 2 shooters put in, $20.00 each)

M open 5 shooters all 5 play the option all 5 have a chance to win $100.00

and so on............

Re-read my example above post # 1

The more shooters that play the cash option the bigger the cash purse is in that given Class and Division.

This is why it would be an option you do not have to play. Yes the cash purses will be different.

Edited August 10, 2010 by bkeeler

[bkeeler]

I have shot other sports with the money added and certain shoots were breeding grounds for sandbagging. One in particular gave a 1100 sporting clays gun for class winners in 12 ga and like 6 cases of ammo+money for the small GA. Guy came in with a sub 80 ave across the board on targes he shot like a week before the match and was shooting in D and E class which is as low as the classes go. Cleaned house across the board with scores in the mid-upper 90s. The next year he shot some more targets only and kept the average way low again and did the exact same thing. On and he was shooting Master Class in sporting clays as well. The idea was good to spread the wealth across the board but in reality,the only ones who had a chance were the top shooters and the sandbaggers.

The problem with the Shot gun sports is your average can go down and you can drop back to a lower Class (correct me if i am wrong here) USPSA you can not drop down in class correct? Like I said before you will never stop sandbagging, but looking at some of the major match results I don't think it is as prominent as everyone thinks (at least from what I have seen in the results, I could be wrong), not to mention you don't have to play the cash option.

[hf219]

You know who had the best cash payout? Franks place in Frostproof. I have shot the Florida State Championship there for several years, he did a cash payout. The last one I went to was awesome. Paid out was setup like this. To my best recolection! Money was split up among total number of shooters per division. L10 didnt have a lot, Limited did, they then broke it down by class numbers. "B" class in Limited had the most amount of shooters. If i remember correctly, the First B class shooter earned nearly as much as Shannon Smith did who won the overall in Limited. Which I think was almost $600 or $500 bucks. Of course everyone also got a plaque according to finish. I dont know about most people, cash looks very good in my pocket. It also looks good in my hand. LOL. They did a payout for overall, then each class, I think through third place for each one. It actually made sense to me. I think the one year I did pretty well in L10 I got some cash. It wasnt as much as another division, of course it wouldnt be. There were not too many people shooting L10. If you want to keep out sandbaggers, pay it out like it was done there. That way you will drive people to the larger filled divisions. You will always have people shooting below class. The classification system we use has its advantages and disadvantages. Most people who do that sort of thing, usually get caught in a speed trap at that match and get bumped. I really liked the way they paid out at Franks place. I believe he does this at the Florida Open and give out a decent amount of prizes at the end. I dont remember anyone ever saying his method of payout was wrong or bad. Of course the match fee wasnt out of control for the state match either, very reasonable as I recall. Thanks to everyone who made those matches what they were, good time.

[hf219]

Oh yeah, one other thing. I realize their might be some math computations needed to figure out the payout. It may be the sort of thing they had dialed in prior to the event. I dont know how they did it. The great thing about it, the MD for the Fla. State was able to get it done and do it with a smile. No complaining or moaning about how it was done. They did it this way for as many years as Ive gone to their match. I believe they still do it for the Open, not sure though. Of course some things are just easier for certain people. Thanks Frank, Manny and the many volunteers that served us as competitors. You did a great job and look forward to you guys holding the A6 in 2011. Hope to see ya all then. H!

[bkeeler]

You know who had the best cash payout? Franks place in Frostproof. I have shot the Florida State Championship there for several years, he did a cash payout. The last one I went to was awesome. Paid out was setup like this. To my best recolection! Money was split up among total number of shooters per division. L10 didnt have a lot, Limited did, they then broke it down by class numbers. "B" class in Limited had the most amount of shooters. If i remember correctly, the First B class shooter earned nearly as much as Shannon Smith did who won the overall in Limited. Which I think was almost $600 or $500 bucks. Of course everyone also got a plaque according to finish. I dont know about most people, cash looks very good in my pocket. It also looks good in my hand. LOL. They did a payout for overall, then each class, I think through third place for each one. It actually made sense to me. I think the one year I did pretty well in L10 I got some cash. It wasnt as much as another division, of course it wouldnt be. There were not too many people shooting L10. If you want to keep out sandbaggers, pay it out like it was done there. That way you will drive people to the larger filled divisions. You will always have people shooting below class. The classification system we use has its advantages and disadvantages. Most people who do that sort of thing, usually get caught in a speed trap at that match and get bumped. I really liked the way they paid out at Franks place. I believe he does this at the Florida Open and give out a decent amount of prizes at the end. I dont remember anyone ever saying his method of payout was wrong or bad. Of course the match fee wasnt out of control for the state match either, very reasonable as I recall. Thanks to everyone who made those matches what they were, good time.

There is another way to do it that would make it mandatory it is kind of lengthy to explain basically everyone in the division would be contributing to HOA all in that division and so on..... I would rather just have the option and keep in the Classes.

[hf219]

You know who had the best cash payout? Franks place in Frostproof. I have shot the Florida State Championship there for several years, he did a cash payout. The last one I went to was awesome. Paid out was setup like this. To my best recolection! Money was split up among total number of shooters per division. L10 didnt have a lot, Limited did, they then broke it down by class numbers. "B" class in Limited had the most amount of shooters. If i remember correctly, the First B class shooter earned nearly as much as Shannon Smith did who won the overall in Limited. Which I think was almost $600 or $500 bucks. Of course everyone also got a plaque according to finish. I dont know about most people, cash looks very good in my pocket. It also looks good in my hand. LOL. They did a payout for overall, then each class, I think through third place for each one. It actually made sense to me. I think the one year I did pretty well in L10 I got some cash. It wasnt as much as another division, of course it wouldnt be. There were not too many people shooting L10. If you want to keep out sandbaggers, pay it out like it was done there. That way you will drive people to the larger filled divisions. You will always have people shooting below class. The classification system we use has its advantages and disadvantages. Most people who do that sort of thing, usually get caught in a speed trap at that match and get bumped. I really liked the way they paid out at Franks place. I believe he does this at the Florida Open and give out a decent amount of prizes at the end. I dont remember anyone ever saying his method of payout was wrong or bad. Of course the match fee wasnt out of control for the state match either, very reasonable as I recall. Thanks to everyone who made those matches what they were, good time.

There is another way to do it that would make it mandatory it is kind of lengthy to explain basically everyone in the division would be contributing to HOA all in that division and so on..... I would rather just have the option and keep in the Classes.

I believe that is what was done down there. Everyone contributes and everyone has the opportunity to get paid. No check off's saying you want money or not, now that would complicate things. All in or all out.

[spanky]

John does this at the Mississippi classic. He might be willing to lend some suggestions.

Eta: he does a straight payout, not a buy-in though

Edited August 10, 2010 by spanky

[EkuJustice]

The averages can go down but the class was you could go down 1 class a year, 1 time per year. The way they would do it is shoot incredibly low scores at a tiny local match or even better "targets only" so no matter what they shot at a big match their average would still remain low. They would also use the targets only to inflate their average sometimes greatly. That is one reason I got fed up with the state especially. State team based on averages and it is amazing what people would sell their integrity for(leather pouch value approximately 150 bucks).

[Charles Bond]

Having a true cash "option" like they do in the shotgun sports is fine by me. I am not certain what the level of participation would be but there is certainly no downside to any MD who wants to add this to their match.

The Florida Open has certainly proved the concept of a cash payback. But there are several other matches (including Area 6) which draw just as many shooters without it. At the end of the day, having a cash payback or option is another tool in the match toolbox that may or may not grow a match.

[Chills1994]

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