Fast vs. Slow Powder

[southernshooter]

Alright, from what I've been reading, you get less felt recoil from a slower powder compared to a faster burning powder. Why is that?

[VegasOPM]

Unfortunately there are too many variables to agree with that statement. In truth, I have found the opposite to be true in most pistol calibers. Recoil is highly subjective in both the "amount" and "severity". Caliber, barrel length, compensators, and power factor are all factors in how a powder's burn rate feels.

[southernshooter]

Well, I'm shooting a Glock 22 40 with the factory barrel. I had loaded some 135 gr. hp's with power pistol but I saw on another post that a popular glock 40 recipe uses 180 gr. bullets with titegroup powder, some I'm gonna give that a whirl next.

[Merlin Orr]

I think the opposite to be true.... In non comped guns anyway... Faster has less muzzle flip than slower.

Bunch of threads with lots of discussion and various conclusions. Read for a few days and you will discover the answer be no closer to the answer.

[CocoBolo]

I think the opposite to be true.... In non comped guns anyway... Faster has less muzzle flip than slower.

Bunch of threads with lots of discussion and various conclusions. Read for a few days and you will discover the answer be no closer to the answer.

Merlin +1. The obvious reason is the expelled gasses. The slow powders produce more gas and this pushes the gun back aka recoil. This is the same principle that lets planes fly and air boats go across the swamp. The second ingredient is the heavier bullet and this works again because you use less powder and produce less gas. Open guns work just bassackwards for the most part, more gas in the comp slows the slide down and air directed up cuts flip, so up to a point more gas is good. Use a lighter bullet more gas but you might pass that point known as F of X where the return is diminishing.

I have found that in a Limited gun (non compensator) the net effect of powder speed are not as significant as in the open gun. A lot of different powders in these guns produce about the same feel. In layman's terms there just isn't any magic the differences are small.

[G-ManBart]

Non-compensated guns = heavy bullet and a small charge of fast burning powder for the softest feel. Compensated guns = lighter bullets and larger charges of slower powder for flatter, softer feel, but there is a balance between flat and soft that will be different for every combination of comp size, barrel ports etc. R,

[TonyT]

There is a perceptible difference in the felt recoil between a fast burning powder with heavier bullets and a slow burning powder with light bullets. Recoil perception is so subjective that ity really is shooter's choice.

[CocoBolo]

There is a perceptible difference in the felt recoil between a fast burning powder with heavier bullets and a slow burning powder with light bullets. Recoil perception is so subjective that ity really is shooter's choice.

I've been thinking the exact same thoughts, and I wish some smart guy with lots of time on his hands would build a rig that would hold the gun and measure the recoil and flip. I might just have to fire up the old plasma cutter and get some cotton scales and build a machine to do testing. Currently when I do testing its after a match so I can get a couple more shooters to test with me, and man they love to shoot your ammo, free bullets just like free beer. Most of the time we are in agreement but not always. I like shooting their guns as well, but its dangerous you might find one you like more than the one you have then you will have to have it.

[G-ManBart]

There is a perceptible difference in the felt recoil between a fast burning powder with heavier bullets and a slow burning powder with light bullets. Recoil perception is so subjective that ity really is shooter's choice.

I've been thinking the exact same thoughts, and I wish some smart guy with lots of time on his hands would build a rig that would hold the gun and measure the recoil and flip. I might just have to fire up the old plasma cutter and get some cotton scales and build a machine to do testing. Currently when I do testing its after a match so I can get a couple more shooters to test with me, and man they love to shoot your ammo, free bullets just like free beer. Most of the time we are in agreement but not always. I like shooting their guns as well, but its dangerous you might find one you like more than the one you have then you will have to have it.

The problem with that is that you'd need computerized equipment to measure things like the dwell time of the recoil impulse, and even if you could gather all the data, it still wouldn't equate to individual perception. There have been some studies done that indicate that when you shoot a gun, your brain shuts down higher level functions for a fraction of a second. This happens to boxers when they get hit. Some folks "reset", for lack of a better word, from the punch/shot, faster than others. If your wiring is fast reset, something with a longer impulse will feel sluggish, and if you're a slower reset, something with a faster impulse will seem snappy. It's all enough that I can't imagine anybody ever putting enough time (money) into it to really understand.

For all intents and purposes, if the load is ballpark in the right area, and you shoot enough of it, you'll adapt. If you don't shoot a couple hundred rounds to get used to it, and run drills on the clock, it will often be worse, even if it would actually be better for you once you got used to it. R,

[CocoBolo]

There is a perceptible difference in the felt recoil between a fast burning powder with heavier bullets and a slow burning powder with light bullets. Recoil perception is so subjective that ity really is shooter's choice.

I've been thinking the exact same thoughts, and I wish some smart guy with lots of time on his hands would build a rig that would hold the gun and measure the recoil and flip. I might just have to fire up the old plasma cutter and get some cotton scales and build a machine to do testing. Currently when I do testing its after a match so I can get a couple more shooters to test with me, and man they love to shoot your ammo, free bullets just like free beer. Most of the time we are in agreement but not always. I like shooting their guns as well, but its dangerous you might find one you like more than the one you have then you will have to have it.

The problem with that is that you'd need computerized equipment to measure things like the dwell time of the recoil impulse, and even if you could gather all the data, it still wouldn't equate to individual perception. There have been some studies done that indicate that when you shoot a gun, your brain shuts down higher level functions for a fraction of a second. This happens to boxers when they get hit. Some folks "reset", for lack of a better word, from the punch/shot, faster than others. If your wiring is fast reset, something with a longer impulse will feel sluggish, and if you're a slower reset, something with a faster impulse will seem snappy. It's all enough that I can't imagine anybody ever putting enough time (money) into it to really understand.

For all intents and purposes, if the load is ballpark in the right area, and you shoot enough of it, you'll adapt. If you don't shoot a couple hundred rounds to get used to it, and run drills on the clock, it will often be worse, even if it would actually be better for you once you got used to it. R,

[superdude]

see:

http://www.38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

[xsniper]

see:

http://www.38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

Great article. It really helps with the "why".

[southernshooter]

Great info here folks, thanks for all the help. What are your thoughts on using 180 gr. bullets and titegroup to shoot limited major with a glock 22? Also, has anyone used titegroup with 135 gr. nosler hollow points? If so, good results? Thanks again.

[latech15]

I have used titegroup wih 40's and unique. Unique is cheaper, but it takes more (4.1) IIRC vs. 3.2 or 3.5 of titegroup. Recoil and functionality is basically the same between the two loads in my G22.

[CocoBolo]

Great info here folks, thanks for all the help. What are your thoughts on using 180 gr. bullets and titegroup to shoot limited major with a glock 22? Also, has anyone used titegroup with 135 gr. nosler hollow points? If so, good results? Thanks again.

With the 135gr bullet you will need to go to a slower powder like IMR7625 at about 6.8-7.2g to get it up to about 1260-1300 fps. TiteGroup is a good powder for heavier Jacketed bullets with lead or moly it tends to melt their back side off, and smoke up the place. Did I say it was dirty? Lead or Moly - WST, SOLO 1000, 231, N320 etc.

Almost forgot, I don't have diswasher so I don't have any Glocks.

Edited July 30, 2010 by CocoBolo

[G-ManBart]

What are your thoughts on using 180 gr. bullets and titegroup to shoot limited major with a glock 22?

That's one of the most popular combos, regardless of what gun it would be shot through. R,

[cletus9mm]

i absolutely love this question. it's one of my favorite experiments to do whenever i have the opportunity. im going to take a different approach to answering the question though. i'm not sure what calibers you reload, or what kind of powder selection is in your arsenal, but here is my suggestion if you have the resources. the most noticeable difference in felt recoil for me has been with .45 acp. the two powders that have given the biggest difference in felt recoil have been power pistol and aa#2. power pistol to me feels much more violent than #2. if you have the resources and want to feel a difference, this combination works (for my perception anyway) but would be surprised if shooters would disagree. i should note that both loads chronographed at 850fps with 230 ball ammo.

[emjei]

Back from the death...... another thing to consider when talking about preasure is OAL right ?

Mj

[kneelingatlas]

Back from the death...... another thing to consider when talking about preasure is OAL right ?

Mj

Right, deeper seated bullets produce higher pressures, and sometimes higher velocity... I've found that once you push a powder past it's useful pressure range, you get less velocity and more pressure.

[AlecThigpen]

I loaded a Magnum Research .45 - 70 10" barrel revolver with 2015BR for a specific fps, then loaded the same fps with 4198. The recoil was stinging and substantial with the slower 2015. The 4198 was quite tame in comparison, very accurate, and didn't throw a fireball out the barrel like the 2015 did. I'll go with the faster powder if I want less recoil for a given velocity. The result was the same with both 300 and 400 grain bullets.

[Hi-Power Jack]

What are your thoughts on using 180 gr. bullets and titegroup to shoot limited major with a glock 22?

One caution: heavy bullets and fast powder are great in .40 major, BUT if you get

any bullet setback, you can run into trouble very quickly. You have

to make sure you're sizing the cases tight enough for sufficient neck

pressure on the bullet - if you're NOT, you can get in trouble fast.

[StraightSh00ter]

I had this same question last night, as I was looking at what to get for my first reloading experience. The handbook said the most 'accurate' powders are the ones that take up more volume. And I noticed that the ones that give the highest bullet velocity for the lowest pressure were the slow burning powders. I was surprised to come on and see guys favoring the faster powders, most of which use smaller fill volumes.

I read the article linked above - while I see and agree there are trends, I have a tough time with the reasoning and think there's either something missing (could be that I'm missing something) or something else going on. Early on he says faster powders recoil softer (in feeling) than slow powders. But later on he says heavier bullets cause less perceived recoil because the event takes place over a longer period of time.

I keep thinking about the difference between gasoline and diesel engines when I think about fast and slow powder. It's been awhile since I've thought about reciprocating engines, but I have a feeling the similarities (diesel = slow+rough, gasoline = fast+smooth) will explain it (to me, at least ) Even with the setback, there's probably some similarity to the compression ratios and the 'constant volume' vs 'constant pressure' cycles.

Sorry for the tangent - I don't mean to derail the conversation, it's just how I figure stuff out.

[Solvability]

I recently loaded 180g Jacketed 40s some with TG and some with CFE-Pistol - opposite ends of the speed spectrum - in my Glock 35 I could not feel any difference.

[kneelingatlas]

I recently loaded 180g Jacketed 40s some with TG and some with CFE-Pistol - opposite ends of the speed spectrum - in my Glock 35 I could not feel any difference.

Both the same PF?

[MarkCO]

In general, less felt recoil from faster powders given the same MV. Charge wights have a contribution, as does bullet and barrel geometry.

How YOU feel recoil is subjective.