Front-only Night Sight - Effective in the dark?

[Dannix]

Is the front-site only route any good in the dark e.g. nighttime enviroment, or is this really only a daylight/lowishlight route?

^ From this thread

Edited July 26, 2010 by Dannix

[G-ManBart]

If it's a normal tritium night sight, it'll work well in the dark and in low light. In reality, total dark is pretty unusual, and everything else is sort of in between. The biggest advantage night sights offer happens when it's dark, but not so dark that you can't identify the target. You can see the target reasonably well, you can see the gun, but you can't really see the sights clearly....that's the bread and butter of night sights.

If it's totally dark you're probably going to need a light of some sort to ID the target, so night sights lose some, but not all, of their utility. When it's totally dark and you have a light on the target, the sights are still in the dark; you can see them on the illuminated target but the glowing inserts make is much, much easier to get a decent sight picture.

Some folks prefer their guns set up with just a front night sight. It makes it impossible to mix up which dot goes where, but it does give up some precision. I think the theory there is that they're not planning on long-range engagements in low light. I had Dave Lauck at D&L do a custom night sight install on my wife's Smith 640, and he used two smaller, whitish inserts on the rear sight and a larger, green insert on the front...no way to confuse those.

Some folks are convinced night sights don't offer anything at all since they'll need a light to ID the target. 15 minutes on an indoor range where I can dim the lights and I can disprove that one easily. R,

[ck1]

Hey! That's my gun (one of 'em anyhow)!

ALL night sights are only good for low-light scenarios, NOT full-on darkness, whether front only or both front-and-rear... if you're talking self-defense, if you can't see your living/breathing target clearly, you shouldn't be shooting at it, period.

This is a very subjective thing, and opinions will vary, but IMO tritium/night sights are completely optional and I've since transitioned to not even bothering with tritium at all and now run all-black irons on all my pistols.

Unless you're in certain low-light situations regularly (like say as a sentry on an evening shift at a security check-point or something) tritium/night-sights only really provide an advantage at dawn and dusk, the other 22+ hours of the day they might as well not exist and in some cases mean you're not carrying the best sights for the lion's share of your time... If talking about possibly using a firearm on something that's living/breathing, then if it's really dark, you need a light 'cause you need to see your target and if you can't see your firearm clearly... well, you get it.

As far as match shooting is concerned, of course night-sights can be put to good use and are a help when shooting low-light/dark stages as in we're shooting for a score (-0 is better than -3...), but in "real life" their actual advantage is very debatable. In my case I only encounter low-light matches once or twice a year so it's not a huge deal to me, if my last name was Sevigny or something and I really had a good chance of going home with some money, then I'd probably mount up a set for the limited matches that I had to.

I seriously doubt that only having tritium up front would handicap one from being able to make an SD shot that would indeed be made with front-and-rear tritium in place, moreover, IMHO lots of practice and good index is worth way more than any tacticool night-sight set anyway and a good friend of mine who's an Optometrist has told me that bright tritium on rear sights would actually only likely make things more confusing to your eyes/brain and make shooting harder in low-light.

So... YMMV as they say...

Edited July 26, 2010 by ck1

[RangerTrace]

Bart and I have discussed this before and it's one of those things we just don't agree on. Since I work days 98% of the time, I prefer a fiber optic front sight, even on my duty guns. If it's night time or I'm in a dark building, I'll have a light attached to my pistol or in my hand.

The problem with every set of night sights I've had, is the white ring which makes them useful in daylight, never lasts.

But, to answer the original question, I think a night sight on the front would be just as effective as front and rear.

[MarkCO]

I wrote about this a while ago...

http://dfuse.us/nightsights.html

[G-ManBart]

Bart and I have discussed this before and it's one of those things we just don't agree on. Since I work days 98% of the time, I prefer a fiber optic front sight, even on my duty guns. If it's night time or I'm in a dark building, I'll have a light attached to my pistol or in my hand. And night sights will STILL be easier to see

The problem with every set of night sights I've had, is the white ring which makes them useful in daylight, never lasts. Why would you look at the white ring? It's not intended to be looked at, it's a byproduct of the adhesive holding the insert in...scrape it out and look at the top of the sight like you're supposed to.

But, to answer the original question, I think a night sight on the front would be just as effective as front and rear.

You've never gone into a parking garage, basement or large building without power during the day????

We've never actually talked about it, just a post or two here.

Lots of people have strong opinions on this, and in every single case that I've gotten them somewhere I can control the lighting they've changed their minds permanently. It's like "oh, that's what you were talking about, now I get it". I'll bet a paycheck on it every day of the week and twice on Sunday!

Edited July 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[G-ManBart]

Unless you're in certain low-light situations regularly (like say as a sentry on an evening shift at a security check-point or something) tritium/night-sights only really provide an advantage at dawn and dusk, the other 22+ hours of the day they might as well not exist and in some cases mean you're not carrying the best sights for the lion's share of your time... If talking about possibly using a firearm on something that's living/breathing, then if it's really dark, you need a light 'cause you need to see your target and if you can't see your firearm clearly... well, you get it.

Most people don't realize it, but they're in low-light situations much of the time they're awake. How often do we walk into a room without turning on a light? My basement is nearly black during the day, both of my garages are pretty dark (even with plenty of windows) during the day, and if I had to shoot at something in any of them, night sights would be as good or better than anything else. The reality is most of our lives are spent in some sort of light less than full bright. Standing out on the range during the day is the exception, not the rule. A common parking garage is one of the best examples; it's not really "dark", but there are a lot of places in them where normal sights are nearly invisible on a relatively distinct target. That's similar to how I set up the demonstration on an indoor range. I put a threat target something reasonable like 7-10yds away and turn down the lights, but leave it so you can clearly the knife/gun in the target's hand. Then I have the folks try a sight picture with, and without night sights on that target. No question which wins every time.

Whenever I ask the folks who disagree if they've tried anything similar, so that they've at least made a decision based on what they saw with their own eyes, for some reason, they never answer.

Quick video in case anybody is interested:

Edited July 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Dannix]

Thanks for all the thoughts!

Yes, I realize in pitch black situations, a torch is going to be necessary. But I've been in more than enough situations where I could clearly distinguish friend from foe, but would have to be point shooting with my standard Glock sights. So I'm sold on the need for nights sights, just wasn't sure if only a front sight would be sufficient vs. front and rear (with different color and/or smaller size in the rear). Apparently it is.

I'm planning on picking up an Armalaser for my BUG. I imagine an Armalaser/torch combo in addition to night sights would be ideal for the Glock. Maybe they will have such a beast once I'm convinced I need to progress to that level.

ck1, you sold on your Ameriglo Pro Glo front sight? They still make an all-red like yours? The closest I'm seeing is red/orange circle, green center, which I'm not digging. XS 24/7 Express sights caught my eye, but their concept seems more tailored to stub noses and the like.

[ck1]

Those sights are Ameriglo's pro glo front (tritium with orange around it) with their pro series rear, it's called the Hackathorn set now (kinda cool that I stumbled onto the same set-up as Hack did as I had them for a while), they're really great SD sights, best I ever found actually, they're just a really wide profile (.140 wide front, .180 rear notch), so out past 15 yards they can be a challenge... WAY better than Big Dots but kind of the same "fast acquisition-type of thing", I do recommend them.

These days I've just gone to all-black irons in a thinner profile as I've found it just works better for me (Ameriglo Defoor's .115 wide front with .150 rear notch), I respect Bart's point of view but I do train in low-light now and again (mostly by dimming the lights at a local indoor range FWIW/coincidence) and just have gotten accustomed to really looking for the light bars around the front blade more than any dot... Other than when shooting from a bright room into a dark room it's actually not too bad once you're accustomed to it, really just as Bart said, there are many situations you find yourself in that are low-light, but few that are no-light where it'd really be an issue. For some, tritium might be a better choice, but not for me anymore is all, to each his own, there's no "wrong way" or "right way" IMO, not practicing in low-light ever might be the "wrong way" I guess as it teaches you a lot and is valuable...

Honestly it's just what one feels most comfortable with as while we'd all like to think that in a life or death situation we'd be lining up our sights, the available data says we'll be tracking our target out of pure instinct whether we like it or not, so, practice with whatever you use is what's most important...

Edited July 27, 2010 by ck1

[G-ManBart]

Honestly it's just what one feels most comfortable with as while we'd all like to think that in a life or death situation we'd be lining up our sights, the available data says we'll be tracking our target out of pure instinct whether we like it or not, so, practice with whatever you use is what's most important...

I know more than a couple of folks who said they could count the serrations on the front sight....it's really one of those "it just sort of depends" things.

I would think that folks who really like a FO front sight for daytime use would love the Ameriglo style that gives them virtually the same sight picture day or night. I prefer all black for daytime bullseye type stuff, FO front for USPSA/action style stuff, but the Trijicons don't seem to hurt the bullseye scores I have to shoot with a duty gun

[Aglifter]

ck1, you sold on your Ameriglo Pro Glo front sight? They still make an all-red like yours? The closest I'm seeing is red/orange circle, green center, which I'm not digging. XS 24/7 Express sights caught my eye, but their concept seems more tailored to stub noses and the like.

I'd skip the XS Big Dots - I have them on my carry guns, but since I started shooting things other than IDPA, I've had some real problems using them. The left/right seems to work OK, but getting the elevation right really seems difficult. That, and having to shift your aiming method depending on the distance is very difficult, at least for me.

I plan on going to, possibly, a TruGlo front sight, and a traditional rear. I like having a night sight, both to find the gun, and because even in a less-than-fully-illuminated room, I couldn't pick up my fiber optic front sight, unless I aimed toward an illuminated room.

[RePete]

When I changed the factory sights on my G17, I installed the Warren/Savigny competition set.

I decided that I wanted a Tritium sight so I used the Warren front. At the '08 IDPA Nationals I ask Scott Warren if he had a Tritium rear sight other than the single dot that Sav igny had him make. Scott didn't (does but now), but said that you really don't need a Tritium rear just the front. I still only have the Trit front and think that maybe he was right.

YMMV.

[Joe4d]

too many dots confuse me, I like a dotted front sight though, My carry and old IDPA guns have a Novak front sight that is a white dot and has tritium in the midddle, They make them with and without the white. Most of my other guns have a fiber optic insert.

[Dannix]

Thanks for the input. I'd like to drop something in for the front sight and use it with my default/factor rear sites, so something standard size. Everything I've seen so far is with green though, which for some reason just doesn't resonate with me. I'd rather go for something red/amber/orange. Rick at Ameriglow said he's "not aware of any company making a red tritium front sight".

ck1, is your vial green? I'm not seeing hint of green in your photos.

With regard to the torch/flashlight, I got an email in from Armalaser. Apparently they are working on a taclight/laser combo with an eta of Spring '11. I'll take a look at it once it goes gold.

[ck1]

The tritium itself is green, yes.