IDPA Defensive Multi-Gun rules

[Ahab]

I have a copy of the rules at Gun Nuts, and I'm honestly really excited about this. My biggest Bravo Zulu for IDPA is the inclusion of pistol caliber carbines as a competitive category. Regardless of how you feel about them as weapons (which is beyond the scope of this thread) lots of people own them, and IDPA is giving those people access to a venue to compete with their Kel-Tecs, Hi-Points, Berettas, AR-9mms and (even more awesomely) the M1 Carbine.

I do think the scoring for shotguns is a little wonky, and I'm not thrilled about the restrictions on shotgun capacity, but this isn't a perfect world and I'm just EXCITED to have a place to run my Rock River LAR-40. What do you guys think about the multi-gun rules?

[Mal223]

I don't understand why I can't run my carbine (AR-15) with "Irons" and still use my semi-auto shotgun. I don't have a pump shotgun to compete with. Mal

[DWFAN]

I don't understand why I can't run my carbine (AR-15) with "Irons" and still use my semi-auto shotgun. I don't have a pump shotgun to compete with. Mal

If Im reading correctly, you can in ESG.

4. Enhanced Service Gun (ESG)

Firearms permitted for this division must be:

A. Rifle: 5.56 x 45 mm (.223) or larger caliber, with iron or single optic sights only. The

use of an inline optical magnifier is legal.

B. Shotgun: Pump or semi-auto only in 12 or 20 gauge, with iron sights only. Five (5)

round magazine limit, Six (6) rounds max in gun.

C. Pistol: Any IDPA legal pistol or revolver using IDPA legal capacity

[Ahab]

that's the same interpretation I had - you can run your carbine in ESG with iron sights. There's no requirement to use an optic on your rifle, although you can get a red-dot optic for a pretty reasonable price. I'm kind of excited about the M1 Carbine being in the Pistol Caliber category. Tell me it wouldn't be cool to run an M1 Carbine, a Remington Model 11 and a Mil-Spec 1911 in Enhanced PCC?

[millisec]

I don't understand why I can't run my carbine (AR-15) with "Irons" and still use my semi-auto shotgun. I don't have a pump shotgun to compete with. Mal

Kinda tweaks me too... many autos like 1100 & 1187 are hardly enhanced guns. Sure you can shoot in ESG but your in the same boat I am. Preferred AR15 iron sights, auto shotgun and for me a SSP or CDP class pistol. So by being forced to ESG you are shooting against rifles with optics and ESP class pistols. Not a huge handicap but one none the less.

I might also throw in the fact they have summarily banned shotgun box mags with excludes all the Saiga's. Of course if your already setup for USPSA 3 gun they nailed you too with length restrictions on mag tubes.

What I really find interesting is there is no load limit for rifle whether intentional or not. Previous attempts at IDPA 3 gun rules had it at 10+1.

Edited July 8, 2010 by millisec

[jar]

I might also throw in the fact they have summarily banned shotgun box mags with excludes all the Saiga's. Of course if your already setup for USPSA 3 gun they nailed you too with length restrictions on mag tubes.

What I really find interesting is there is no load limit for rifle whether intentional or not. Previous attempts at IDPA 3 gun rules had it at 10+1.

I don't get the point of a tube length limit if there's already a rather low capacity limit. What's the point?

[Merlin Orr]

A full set of rules posted here would be nice......

Looks like we have a "lets be different" set of rules for no other reason than.....lets be different.

Pistol is OK.

Rifle? Lowest common denominator.

Pistol cartridge carbines?..... with the 30 M1 looked at the same as 9mm top ends?

Shotgun limited to 5 rounds....

So we take our "store bought" defense shotguns and replace the tube with something of lower than factory capacity to be legal?

I'll play but I think we missed out on a good chance to really have something excellent.

[John Z Sr]

This looks like fun, thanks to whoever is responsable

[John Z Sr]

Just a thought,,,, any interest in a "Heavy Metal" class? I think it would be way cool to get the ole M1 Garand or M-1A out, with a good old stock type 1911 in 45 ACP and a 12 Gauge pump. Iron sights, as the Good Lord intended and maybe a one shot down 1 or 0 to neutralize, I don't think that anyone would argue that a .30 cal 147-168 grainer at 2600-2850 FPS would be a stopping hit. Again, just a thought

[Greg Bell]

Merlin,

I agree it's purely lets be different, which I guess is ok but I think that could be accomplished with shorter courses of fire not overly restrictive gun divisions.

I'm currently my clubs match director, we shoot IDPA on 1st weekend and we get creative on our 3rd weekend. I just cant see this flying for our club, I think I'll stick with our "outlaw" type matches for our 3rd weekends.

[Ahab]

Greg, I'm certainly not trying to tell you how to run your matches - but it seems to me that if you want IDPA 3-gun to be better, the best way to do that is to shoot the matches and then offer feedback. The whole point of the provisional rules that were released is so that clubs can try them out, see what works, see what doesn't work, and then provide their feedback to HQ and get the rules changed to a better set of rules. I certainly agree that they're not perfect - lumping CDP and ESP guns in the same category is odd to say the least, but the only way they're going to get better is if we shoot them and give HQ feedback on them.

[M ammo]

I talked to Robert at IDPA a Long time ago,, about IDPA 3 Gun,

and as soon as the 5 rnd shotgun limit came out of his mouth,,

I had to tell him,,, your hurting your game,, already,,

but as Even I say,,, if you don't like the rules,, don't shoot the match.

OR!! make your own rules and have your own match.

That is how it is!

[MarkCO]

Hope it works. I actually think it is kind of funny. In 2005, I submitted a "Long gun" set of rules to IDPA and told them we had been running long gun side matches for a while and they were working well. Our club was pretty much told to stop it or risk getting our memberships cancelled. We were told long guns were not defensive weapons, they were offensive weapons. Glad to see that their opinion has "matured".

[jar]

...lumping CDP and ESP guns in the same category is odd to say the least, ...

There's a really easy way to fix that. Add a heavy metal division. CDP pistol, 308 rifle, 12G shotgun.

[millisec]

I thought I would repost my full comments from the IDPA forum...

I like the idea but the rules need some work most notably equipment and round count. What has transpired is little more than a castrated version of IPSC 3 gun and for most of the clubs I shoot not very practical as a side match when regular matches already often run into the afternoon on less than smooth days. Take 60-100 shooters through 6-8 pistol stages in Florida weather and everyone is pretty well wiped out let alone ready for another match and then the few that shoot 3 gun being left to tear down all the stages late in the day. I used to shoot IDPA matches in NC where they had side rifle matches or shotgun with maybe 4 stages and it was always an all day affair with the side match usually starting mid-late afternoon. Theres good reason IPSC 3 gun matches are on a separate day from a pistol match, 3 gun is just too involved and time consuming.

Local matches are good practice for bigger matches but they are supposed to be about having fun. I see too many people wanting ridiculous ammo capacity restrictions (the draft rules are already too restrictive and I would bet there will be something more coming for rifle). I feel sorry for residents of the peoples republics of NY, NJ, IL and Kalifornia but the majority should not be forced to live under minority rules. We should not be catering to the lowest denominator let alone the EU.

If it is to compete with the existing and well established 3 gun and be more affordable why take aim at equipment people already own.

Banning mag fed shotguns outright and thereby excluding the Saiga altogether. At least allow it in ESG.

Deliberately banning any shotgun mag tube that extends past the end of the barrel which is irrelevant if there is already a round limit. This will discourage people who will just stick to IPSC rather than buying another gun or switching tubes. Bump the round count to at least 8 in gun and on carrier for a more engaging shotgun course of fire.

The muzzle brake rule is ok with me and its the same as IPSC but how reasonable is it for the people with oversized brakes or oversized flash suppressors welded on? They could just be relegated to ESG rather than an outright ban. That also begs the question of what about shotgun? Is the oversized external adjustable choke on my 1187 banned?

What really adds insult to injury is requiring a pump shotgun to shoot in a stock class. Your typical 1187 or 1100 is hardly an enhanced weapon. If its a stock production gun it should be considered stock and included in SSG. I own autos and I wont be rushing out to buy a pump gun which means I would need to put optics on my rifle to really compete in ESG and of course I shoot a SSP pistol.

ESG should include optics period on the rifle with little or no restrictions. Here again people are not going to want to reconfigure or buy a new gun just to shoot an IDPA match.

Open the round counts up and leave it up to the stage designers to determine a round count. Theres already local carbine matches here run like IDPA and ~18-30 (160-200 match count) rounds per stage makes it way more engaging and fun.

Edited July 9, 2010 by millisec

[RobMoore]

The pump-action sanctuary doesn't really surprise me. They need a place to play, and while the semi-advantage is a small one, the rules have always been more about the perceived advantage than the real one.

[FLG8R]

Just read the OP's rule set, and i don't see where saiga or box fed shotguns would be banned. Only limiations i saw were for 5 rds max in the gun with one allowed in the chamber. Saiga's do have 5 round mags, in fact are sold with them as such... just not the 10-20 rounders people are used to seeing...

[John Z Sr]

...lumping CDP and ESP guns in the same category is odd to say the least, ...

There's a really easy way to fix that. Add a heavy metal division. CDP pistol, 308 rifle, 12G shotgun.

That's my view, lets have a grown up division with real guns and real bullets

[2alphas]

An unavoidable truth makes this 3-Gun effort a bit more understandable. IDPA IS A BUSINESS first SPORT second!

I love the shooting sports and existing 3-Gun most.

My .02.....

TC

[Glock3422]

Just read the OP's rule set, and i don't see where saiga or box fed shotguns would be banned. Only limiations i saw were for 5 rds max in the gun with one allowed in the chamber. Saiga's do have 5 round mags, in fact are sold with them as such... just not the 10-20 rounders people are used to seeing...

The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED on any shotgun.

A. No Bi-pods

B. No Laser aiming devices.

C. No compensators.

D. No speedloaders or detachable box magazines.

[FLG8R]

Just read the OP's rule set, and i don't see where saiga or box fed shotguns would be banned. Only limiations i saw were for 5 rds max in the gun with one allowed in the chamber. Saiga's do have 5 round mags, in fact are sold with them as such... just not the 10-20 rounders people are used to seeing...

The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED on any shotgun.

A. No Bi-pods

B. No Laser aiming devices.

C. No compensators.

D. No speedloaders or detachable box magazines.

How is a detachable box magazine a "modification" i that's how the shotgun was intended/designed to be used?

Just asking!

[RobMoore]

In the "new" rulebook, the word "modifications" is stated to include features offered from the factory that fall outside of HQs opinion of how a gun should look.

Edited July 10, 2010 by RobMoore

[Blueridge]

Just read the OP's rule set, and i don't see where saiga or box fed shotguns would be banned. Only limiations i saw were for 5 rds max in the gun with one allowed in the chamber. Saiga's do have 5 round mags, in fact are sold with them as such... just not the 10-20 rounders people are used to seeing...

The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED on any shotgun.

A. No Bi-pods

B. No Laser aiming devices.

C. No compensators.

D. No speedloaders or detachable box magazines.

My take on the magazine shotguns being restricted comes from the fact that speedloaders for shotguns are banned. If there are no speedloaders allowed, then magazine fed shotguns should be restricted. It would be a clear advantage to use a magazine fed shotgun when everyone else would be loading the tube of their shotgun during the same course of fire one at a time. To be competitive it would behoove competitors to get a magazine fed shotgun, thus creating an equipment race. IDPA has made it clear that they don't intent to make competition an equipment race.

That said I bring up the fact that the rules are not finalized at this point. When clubs try out the rules and provide feedback, then the rules will be likely modified to a more polished form. Try the format and give feedback to IDPA, then see if they will make the changes that the participants want.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Blueridge

[jmorris]

Not trying to antagonize but I won't hold my breath for a more "polished" set anytime soon. At least not judging by the evolution of the pistol rules.

[kdmoore]

As a saiga shooter, I was disappointed to see them disallowed.

Given the small round counts, the load restrictions and the prohibition on preloading to fit the stage needs I doubt that they would be the guaranteed winner folks think.

Set up a course requiring bird, bird, slug buck slug .... well you get the idea. Doubt Saiga shooters will be able to keep up at all. Throw in movement between shooting stations (where belly feeders can top off) and a GOOD shooter can keep up if not beat the Saiga shooter.

Doubt anyone involved with the rules has much competition trigger time on a Saiga.