180 violation

[sperman]

I feel like I'm in the middle of some sort on Monty Python sketch. It doesn't matter how many times I say "this has nothing to do with a retreat. Nothing to do with running uprange while pointing the gun downrange" that is still what everyone is talking about.

[sperman]

Am I correct that as long as you keep the gun pointed downrange, and don't sweep yourself in the process, there is nothing that would get you disqualified for turning uprange. I know there is no good reason to do this, and the odds of someone doing this successfully are almost nil, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing something in the rules.

Look at the July-Aug Front Sight. You'll see a picture in there of exactly this type of movement.

Page 39? Not what I'm talking about. I seriously doubt Front Sight would include a picture of what I'm trying to describe, because it would be nearly impossible to do without violating the 180.

[sperman]

We can always substitue the word retreat with tactical redeployment..

Call it what you like, it has nothing to do with the question I am attempting to ask.

[Sarge]

We can always substitue the word retreat with tactical redeployment..

How about, "advancing to the rear!"

[sperman]

Maybe some diagrams will help.

Step 1 - Shooter engages T1.

Step 2 - Shooter rotates to his left (counterclockwise in the diagram) putting the gun between himself and the gallery.

Step 3 - Shooter continues to rotate to his left. He would completely sweep everyone standing uprange, except he now has the gun pointed at his feet.

Step 4 - Shooter engages T2.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.

[ebg3]

That's what I thought you meant. We had to DQ someone a few months ago for trying to do the same thing. We did stop him before he pointed at everyone.

[Corey]

its doable. ive done in it dryfire just for the fun of it. the gun has to be held above yor head and you have to do a weird wrist bend but its doable. smart? no. safe? ehh, prolly not. should it done? hell no.

[ac4wordplay]

Maybe some diagrams will help.

...

I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.

As I expected. The tactical pirouette. Not impossible to do without technically violating 10.5.2 and 10.5.5. Not recommended. LE (and some non-LE that try to be "tacti-cool") that practice the "sul" position have made attempts at this during matches (usually one of their first matches). High "pucker factor".

Best,

ac

[Shootingirons45]

We had a simililar situation some months ago and the person was DQed. He'd pointed the weapon down and had it tight into his stomach. Thanks for the diagrams as I'm a lil slow at times on the uptake.

[dagger10k]

You can also pass the gun behind your back from one hand to another. It's not something I'd ever do, but I think it'd be legal.

[open17]

"Tactical pirouette".

I like that description!

Anyway---You CAN turn a complete 360 in either direction and keep the muzzle pointing

directly downrange. Try it. Hold gun or point finger stronghand. Begin turning, and

as you do turn the gun upside down and bring your hand over your head. At the midpoint,

the gun will be directly over your head, upside down with the muzzle pointing downrange.

Continue turn, and you end up with the gun right side up and still pointing downrange.

For some reason it's much easier for me to do (right handed) turning clockwise than it

is turning counterclockwise. I've never seen it done in a match, and have no intention

of trying it with a hot gun, but it's really not that scary of a movement.

[EkuJustice]

Tried it and I would see no benefit to doing it. Its much slower and you better have great control to pull it off in match conditions. I am not sure why you would want to though

[Team Amish 1]

I believe "retreat stage" IS the proper terminology.

Googleing IPSC + Retreat + Stage will get you a few results.

Depending on which side you need to turn to after your sprint, your have the gun over your shoulder or pointed behind you with outstretched arm.

[wide45]

But, advancing to the rear has nothing to do with the question at hand

[ac4wordplay]

"Tactical pirouette".

I like that description!

Glad you like it! I don't think I stole the term from anybody, but I can't be certain that I deserve credit for it.

I once saw it performed with a rifle at an Area multi-gun match (but not the method you described). The competitor's muzzle was to the left (maybe 70 degrees?) from the median intercept, some of the competitor's "plan" fell apart and he started to rotate counter-clockwise. As he realized that he was approaching 90 degrees from the median he went muzzle up, almost fully vertical (no 10.5.2 violation), and continued his body rotation (to facing up-range, and then around more to end up ~70 degrees to the right of the median intercept) where he lowered his muzzle and engaged a target. (Or maybe the directions were reversed...) Regardless, it was unexpected and had me on my toes. I've only seen it unsuccessfully (10.5.2 violation) performed with a rifle in a muzzle down ("sul" - type) position at matches. Haven't seen the "pirouette" performed successfully (no 10.5.2 violation) at a handgun match with either the muzzle up ("Charlie's Angels" style), or with the muzzle down ("sul" style), and I'd really rather *not* see any attempts.

Best,

ac