Singlestack Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I learned to shoot a shotgun with my elbows "up". I know skeet/trap instructors teach this method so I figured I was good to go. I have been using this technique with my rifle as well. What technique do you use for 3-gun and why? P.S. I'm not worried about CQB stuff. Just 3-gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 elbow's out. starts & stops faster w/o overswing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Benny's right, I don't know about 3 gun rifle, but shotgun, definately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Benny, Mind if I quote you on that? I'm going to print your post out, laminate it, and tape it to my stock as a warning to the next range troll that throws a hissy fit over my highly-tuned "flying elbows" style. "That's funny, your forehead looks just like the butt of my AR." -------------------- Awesome question SS! Wondered about that for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 SS, I think you know I prefer the elbows down technique and I can give you many examples of why, but I think its best to be familiar with both depending on the situation. You should try both and see which you prefer for when you have a choice. I find the high elbows technique is a problem when you doing the CQB type courses in tight quarters like hallways and windows, but I find it faster to use the "high elbow" when leaning around walls or barricades. Learn both and use the one that best fits the situation. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 What do you guys mean by "up"? Do you mean the upper arm is parallel to the ground? Or is it even higher than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 GordonB, You're correct. Elbows up is the traditional way most of us learned to shoot a rifle or a shotgun. The elbow/arm is parallel to the ground. Each technique has some advantages & disadvantages and most shooters are very opinionated as to which one they prefer. Try both of them and see which one works for you. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 28, 2004 Author Share Posted January 28, 2004 Erik, You are the reason I started this thread. After our conversation at the last 3-gun match I have been thinking about/questioning my technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 SS, I guess I should have picked up on that, but I've been in zombie mode all week. '04 has not been a good year to me so far. One thing I forgot to mention was the elbows down technique is a little harder to do if you don't have a pistol grip (i.e.- shotgun), but it can be done. How's it working out for you? Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 One up and one down...just like God and the Marines wanted!! Unless it's a shotgun, then both up. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 hadnt even thought about it until you asked .... but in general, up I think. Devil Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 KurtM, Hate to disappoint you, but the Marines do teach the elbows down technique. The regular line grunts don't get it, but Force Recon and FAST teams do, as well as other teams in CQB environments Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Bear1142: Not disapointed in the least! Once those guys get tired of spraying down the area, they call the line companies to come and hit the targets that need to be neutralized KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 KurtM, Now I can't argue with that. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 I guess "elbows up" is going to be awkward with that mono-pod dil-hikie on your rifle Erik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 SS, Must be a slow day, looking to stir up some trouble again? Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLJ Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Erik and Kurt, as for the Marines..........With a rifle "everyone" gets taught elbows down, even the regular grunts. This is taught for CQB as well as standing on the 200 yard line. However the USMC Rifle team still uses rear high and front low. So you still see a little bit of it out there because you have some people (range officers) that do not want to change. Now if Marines were sent into combat with an $800 shooting jacket and leather loop slings..............Not very practical. As for shotguns, both down. Especially with the new M1014's. If you don't go elbows down and squared up and let your face get forward on the new stock...........It will only happen once. JLJ PS. Erik, how is the family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 The next time you see myself,mickiclck, todd salmon, kurt, jeff crambitt, tony holmes, bennie cooly & a host of others, look where we put our's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Erik, Trouble? Me? Nah.... just an observation. Actually, it is one of the reasons I posed the question. I was pondering while driving down the hiway and I was trying to imagine "elbows up" with a forearm mounted vertical grip. The picture I came up with was fairly amusing. Benny, Unfortunately, I don't get to shoot with any of the folks you listed. It could be a while before I get to..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Hmm, let's see, leather loop sling...you mean like on the Springfield 1903-A3,and the venerable M1, back in wars that requiered less than the present 300,000 rounds expended to hit ONE single opponent??? How impracticle!!! It's a wonder that anyone was ever hit befor the elbows down technique was dreged from the bottom of the current marksmanship pool. It is true that I can't speak for the current Marine doctrine, but as of 5 years ago it still had a small resemblence to Markmanship training. The one realy good thing about elbows down is now maybe every one can get rid of their elbow pads as now yuo can't bang them into things since they are firmly locked down and your hands gripping the carbine are sooooo close together, another great marksmanship aid no doubt!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I'm a shotgun/rifle newbie... when I bought my 870, I was taught both the elbows down and that was fine. Just got an 1100 and learned tonight (after reading this thread for a few days) that strong elbow up gives much better control and less muzzle rise. Shotguns are fun. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I think if you go to a trap match, all the guys shooting 27 yard handicap have thier "wings" out. At least for me, it forces the recoil pad to where it should be, and not just above the bone in the shoulder (e.g: bruising in the morning) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Jason, Everyone is healthy, but we are going through all the normal growing pains. The older one is having some trouble sleeping through the night and its really starting to wear us out. I hope it doesn't go on much longer. How about you? Singlestack, Yeah, it would look a little funny, but the forward pistolgrips help facilitate the "down" technique. They don't work as well with the "up" technique. BerKim, Be careful applying other sports to what we do. There is much more to the "down" technique than just tucking in your wing. It involves a whole different stance, mount, and grip, not just the elbow. You also don't see Trap shooters running down a confined hallway doing 170 degree swings to window ports. I'm sure their technique is quite appropriate for the sport they're competing in. Just be careful about the "apples vs. oranges" comparisons, sometimes they don't translate well. While I may be a bit presumptious and I apologize in advance if I am, I would question how well some others on the forum really understand the "down" technique? From a purely diagnostic point of view, in order to really evaluate which one is better for an individual's use, you need to sufficiently master and experiment with both before you can get a REAL objective result. I may be wrong and I'm sure the others will chime in with their experiences, but afterall, isn't that what we want? I've shot 3 gun for about 6 years. The first two years I used the "up" techniques and did fine. After some extensive research, training, and adaptation, I tried the "down" technique. 2 years ago, I did a side by side comparison of the different styles with a timer. I based it on static & moving courses, split & recovery times, engagement & swing times, and overall perceived recoil. I discovered the "down" technique worked better 80-85% of the time, for me. As such, it's now my preferred method. Maybe I'm doing the "down" technique differently than others, maybe others aren't doing it right themselves, regardless, I think there is a need for both styles. I choose and use one more than another, but I have the ability and the option of using either one. It's one more tool in my toolbox that others have choosen not to use and I'll take every advantage I can get. Many people don't know that Rob Leatham is left handed, but trained himself to shoot right. The end result is he is truly ambidextrious and can shoot with either hand equally well. This is one of the reasons he usually dominates standards stages. Does this option give him an advantage? It sure as hell does. I think we all would like to shoot equally well with both hands, but we don't expend the effort and comittment to do so. When all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail and that isn't always the case. The more tools you have, the more options you have. I think having more options makes you a better shooter and I choose to have as many as possible. If you a one hammer kind of guy, more power to you. May you find nothing but nails. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Erik - The "down" technique surely seems to work well for you based on your shooting. Question: When would you/do you use the "up" technique? Long/tight off hand shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Bear1142 has a good point here. I like to shoot off the off side quite a bit just so when I need it its there. I tried the down thing, and for me it just didn't work. I found that my swings were much more erratic, and accuracy past about 100M was just plain worse. Then I thought back, and I can't think of one time I ever hit an elbow running in a confined space. I then took a real good look at what some of our students were doing and accross the board, the elbows in tight guys had a real big problem with "overcontrolling" the front of the rifle. Any little change when you are holding your carbine by the mag well or just in front, translates to a real big shift out at the muzzle. We also found real heavy breathing, with the ELBs locked in made the muzzle look like a heart monitor graph. Still in all it is a usefull thing to know about as some time you might find your self in a shoulder wide hallway and you still have to function.KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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