Dark Helmet Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 New guy to the forums here. I have recently joined a local gun club, USPSA, and IDPA. I have been to a few IPSC matches as an observer. I have yet to attend an IDPA match, but joined on the advice of a bud. I have yet to shoot in my first match in either. I am not new to shooting, only shooting competitively. I have a door-kicking background from the military and have a CCW and carry a USP 40 compact that I shoot pretty well. I have read the FAQs, and they have been most helpful and consistent with what everyone has been telling me. After watching the IDPA matches, I have decided on not shooting production class with the USP, and so far like the Limited 10 category. I am starting to gear up, and need advice on my first competition pistol purchase. I want to buy a gun that I can use in both CDP class of IDPA and Limited 10 in IPSC. I realize that at least a few compromises have to be made, but only want to invest in one weapon until I figure out which type of competition is right for me (if not both). From my discussion with those "in the know" (read that as guys that shoot often and are compeitive), that what I am looking for is a single-stack 45 that will 1) fit in the IDPA-regulation box, 2) has a bushing barrel, and 3) has no tungsten guide rod or dust protection on the lower slide. My research and discussion with others has led me to the Les Baer Ultimate Master 45 in 5", with an "un-modified" factory-style mag release (Les Baer says they can-do easy) for IDPA compliance. I know that the holsters will be different already. Probably going with a Safariland for IPSC and a Fubus or BladeTech for IDPA. Knowing the intended hybrid purpose of the weapon, what advice would you offer? Am I tracking correctly with the Baer? Any and all responses from experienced competitors welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 My research and discussion with others has led me to the Les Baer Ultimate Master 45 in 5", with an "un-modified" factory-style mag release (Les Baer says they can-do easy) for IDPA compliance.I know that the holsters will be different already. Probably going with a Safariland for IPSC and a Fubus or BladeTech for IDPA. You are on the right track. Baer makes a fine pistol, but are a bit pricey for alot of people. I would suggest you Look REALLY hard at Kimber OR an STI Trojan. For their price, they can't be beat. A fiber optic front is about the only thing either needs to make them perfect. I use a Blade-Tech holster in IDPA and just love it. CR Speed and Safariland makes great holsters for IPSC as well. As far as magazines, go with either Wilson or McCormick "Power" Mags, don't settle for anything else, trust me. Smith and Alexander makes an excellent one-piece magwell that is both IDPA and USPSA legal and is a MUST if you want to do fast reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Wow! Do you handload/reload .45acp? Factory ammo for .45acp is significantly more expensive than .40sw. I don't know for sure, but, I don't know why not ... I think the Para Ord P16.40 is legal for CDP (at least if you only load 10rds). IDPA doesn't have major/minor, but, it sounds like you're pretty serious about this and so you'll probably want to be major in USPSA so you'll want, at least, .40sw. Many shooters get the Para P16.40 if they don't care to spend $2000+ for an STI/SV. I've recently seen a blued, brand new P16.40 for $800. There are lots of aftermarket parts for it in case you want to ditch IDPA ... at least for the P16.40. For a single-stack 1911, I'd say "save your pennies". Search around and you'll probably find plenty of "external extractor" (one way or the other) threads. I've owned several 1911's. IMO, there's two points for problems. The extractor and the feed ramp. STI and SVI solve the feed-ramp problem with a ramped bbl. I'm not sure what models they have with external extractors, but, I'd look at either of them before a Wilson or Baer. And, get it in a .40sw. Otherwise, Para's coming out, supposedly, this February, with their PXT which is single-stack .45 with a ramped bbl AND an external extractor. If you don't buy the feed-ramp thing, Sig's coming out with their GSR with an external extractor. S&W also has a nice 1911 with an external extractor ... I think the Para's the same price though ... and you might have to replace the front sight. As you're not considering just getting 2 guns, I'm presuming you'd like to keep things a little reasonable and the gun is intended to last you a while. I think, for the money, the Para P16.40 is tough to beat. Does IDPA CDP only allow single-stack 1911's? Otherwise, why are you considering only single-stacks? Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 IDPA's CDP division allows .45 ACP only. First, get just one holster for both games. Really. I would shoot my Witness .45 in the same situation. It's a double-stack and is easier to reload. If I didn't have it I'd look at the CZ-97. If I had money to burn I'd get an STI or SV set up appropriately, but I don't think a CDP-legal S_I offers as much of an advantage as a full-blown L10/Limited legal S_I in .40. You've handicapped yourself slightly by saying your L10 gun must also be CDP legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolJim Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I would shoot the H&K in IDPA and get a STI Edge for IPSC. That Les Baer your talking about runs like $2500 doesn't it? Thats to much for a single stack in my opinion. If you haven't shot either sport yet why not try them with the H&K first? In my area most people don't shoot both. Just a thought. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 If you want to shoot .45 for both why not go with a Glock 21? Add a brass magwell & baspads for limited 10 and take them off for IDPA. With the gun, magwell, extra mags, basepads, holster(you can use the same one for both and be competitive) your under $1000. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBean Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I'd go with a Kimber if you are looking for a 1911 platform. The Les Baer are really nice but they are a bit pricey. Give the Kimbers a serious look. A friend had an Eclipse model that was literally 100% reliable for several thousand rounds. Another friend bought the gun and it is still running strong. Their new Tactical model even comes with a magwell, front strap checkered and ambi safeties. A local gun shop had one recently for just $899. It was really hard for me turn that one down. Defeinitely go with Wilson mags. Some of the guys here locally are using the blade techs for their limited 10 and limited class holsters. With a little practice you can draw just as fast with one of those as you can a "race" holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Para Ordnance LDA - meets SSP in IDPA and ALL divisions other than revolver in USPSA. Use a Fobus or Blade Tech holster and play - after a year decide which division you really want to concentrate on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Yikes! Your buddies, that are steering toward that expensive LB, are obvisously 45 nutz. You are on a path to spend waaaay more money than you need to in these games (save it, you'll need it for other stuff). Shooting 45...you gotta reload. Just gotta. Heck, even if you are shooting 40, you will want to be reloading before long. If you want to stick with the single-stack 45 for CDP and Limted10, then the idea of the STI Trojan sounds perfect...then you can spend the money you just saved on buying a Dillon press for reloading. I agree with Erik...use the same holster in L10 as you do in CDP. What I would really suggest is that you shoot what you have...for 6 months or so. Get a feel for the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 DH, I shoot IDPA CDP and ESP. I also shoot IPSC Limited 10. I use a Baer Premier II with the 1.5" package for CDP and Limited 10 in 45ACP. I shoot a Baer Premier II in ESP in 38 Super. I use McCormick 10 rd mags for Limited 10 and ESP. I use McCormick power mags (8 rd) for CDP.( Not much luck with Wilson mags, so they are just for practice). Fiber optic front sights on both guns. I use the Hellweg KSL limited holster (Brownell's item #425-105-191) for Limited 10 and the Milt Sparks Summer Special IWB for IDPA. However, for the sake of speeding up my times I will shoot a Blade-Tech belt hoster this season. The comments regarding Kimber are on point. They make a great product. I shot a Custom Target II in 38 Super for part of last year and it was flawless. I recently purchased a STI Edge and will shoot it in IPSC Limited. The comment about shooting your 40cal in IDPA and buying an Edge is solid advice. It is a great product. Bottom line: if you want a Baer get one,you won't regret it. The Premier II with the 1.5" package will save you about $1000. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Like Flex said, shoot what you have for a while. Your HK is fine for Production or Limited10. Try out as many peoples hi-cap 40cal guns as you possibly can. It's very difficult to load jacketed .45 rounds and do it economically. Some people also notice the 45 has more torque in your hands. I notice that bigtime. More than all the expensive options on someone's Premier gun (and they ARE very very nice) what you're gonna find out is that ammo without smoke REALLY helps your hit factor on probably 80% of the ranges you'll ever compete at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 One more thing on the SS .45.... you will need different magazines for each game. Limited 10 requires the 10 round Wilson or CMC mags mentioned; CDP requires 7 or 8 round flush-fitting mags that fit in the gun in the IDPA box. Cha-ching! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Limited 10 doesn't require 10 round mags. We have a number of shooter that show up with 8 round mags that they use in other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 That was a "for all practical purposes" requirement, not a rulebook requirement. I knew I'd get called on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 .Shooting 45...you gotta reload. Just gotta. Heck, even if you are shooting 40, you will want to be reloading before long. Absolutely right! I competed for 6 months and finally bought a 650. Best decision. Be sure to factor that in to your start up costs. Also consider that you will spend $220-250 on mags as Erik mentioned.( 6 CMC 10rd power mags plus 6 CMC 8rd power mags, just as an example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Dark Helmet, Your Schwarz is big enough, just shoot it! I think you'd be better off spending some cash on a case of ammo for your USP, and shooting that in a few IDPA matches in SSP (or ESP) class, and a few USPSA matches in L-10 or Prod class (depending on whether you wanna start with the hammer down, or not). That said, a I think every household should have a single stack .45! Mine is a Kimber Gold Match. I added lighter recoil and mainsprings, a Wilson magazine well and mainspring housing, and grip tape on the front strap. The gun is reliable and accurate, and has a nice trigger(crisp, and under 4 lb). I shot it in CDP in IDPA until I moved to New Orleans and there wasn't any IDPA Now I shoot it in L-10 in USPSA. I'm pushing really close to B class, and find the reloads with a single stack and those long 10 round magazines are the weakest link in my shooting game (I'm working on it). A Baer would be a great gun. An STI Eagle 5.0 (widebody bushing barrel 1911) would be a great gun. A Kimber would be a great gun. It will be a long time before you can outshoot any of them, though, and you'd be better served by buying a less expensive gun and a reloading rig, than a more expensive gun, and having to buy factory ammo. Good luck, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerSniper158 Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 DH.. See what I tell ya. You`d get all kinds of info on here. CS#158 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Helmet Posted January 27, 2004 Author Share Posted January 27, 2004 The Premier II with the 1.5" package will save you about $1000. Thanks to all of you for some every good advice. I appreciate the time you have taken out for a novice such as myself. Jim, I am curious....the $1,000 difference is substantial. What am I giving up by going with the Premier as opposed to the UM? I looked at Baer's website and did not note any discernable difference(?) Also, a good point was made that it would be a long, long, time before I got to be so good that I would be better than any weapon in Baer's lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpeters8445 Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Dark Helmet, I have a Baer ultimate master in 38 super that I shoot for IDPA. The Ultimate master is a great gun. However, I shoot a double stack 2011 in USPSA and I much prefer the 2011. 95 % of my shooting, "both in practice and in matches," is with the 2011. So when I go to an IDPA match and break out the single stack Baer, I feel that I don't do as well as I could with the single stack because simply, I don't practice as much with the single stack. I think I'm going to sell the Baer and buy a 2011 platformed gun for IDPA, that way I think it will be easier switching back and fourth between USPSA and IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimstc Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 DH, I really don't know the difference between the PII and the UM. The specs seem pretty much the same. Call Baer and talk with Tim. (309)658-2716. If you do decide on a Baer, check out GunBroker.com as you will save several hundred dollars by not buying direct from Baer. Plus you won't have to wait 12 weeks for your gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 For that kind of money...you can get a true custom gun from Benny Hill, Brazos, Dawson, or EGW. There are better places to put your money than with LB...in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerSniper158 Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Flex, We spent a few hours discussing that very topic at a gun show over the weekend ( DH is a buddy of mine) . I told him to come here and see what everyone else would think of his choice. There is alot of other ways he could go considering what he wants to spend. No knocks against the Baer guns, just think he could do better for the money, and still have money left over for the reloader. I told him just get what you will be comfortable and get out and shoot it, have fun with it, and learn. Over time he can base his next game gun purchase on his own experience. Cuz he really likes my SVI.. CS#158 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Here's one more option, get a Glock 35. You can shoot Limited, Limited 10 and Production in IPSC. It can be used for SSP and ESP in IDPA. .40 componets are a lot cheaper than .45ACP. If you must have a 1911 get a Kimber. Don't waste your money on a Gold Match. I have had six Kimbers over the last few years. All would group under 1 1/2" @ 25 yds. Two will go under 1". I am not knocking the Les Baers, but IMO they are not that much better than a Kimber. I just got through working on two LBs this weekend. The only thing that I change on my Kimbers is the grip safety. I like the Ed Brown as it allows the gun to sit lower in my hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Ahh..Lonestar, I see your schwartz is as big as mine.... No advice, I'm laughing too hard to think. If you keep posting, I have tons more to follow. Mog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Helmet Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 I bought a new Baer Premier II .45 today for $1,300 on-line through a shop in Texas. Thanks to all for all the advice; I'll let you know how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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