Renton's Championship Series match

[Duane Thomas]

Closed, pending moderator discussion.

In the meantime, please take the time to reread the Forum Guidelines, specifically:

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.

No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.

Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.

[Flexmoney]

After some Moderator discussion, we are going to open this thread back up. The feedback seems to be on topic with the thread.

Please, allow folks to give honest feedback from their perspective. Don't attack them if you hold a different view. We aren't here to win arguments, but to share experiences.

Kyle F.

Forum Administrator

[SLM]

Please, allow folks to give honest feedback from their perspective. Don't attack them if you hold a different view. We aren't here to win arguments, but to but to share experiences.

Thanks for opening this back up.

[Sudden Death]

Ok, everyone has the right to their own opinion, so here is mine. I just orginized and had a class with Travis and Max it was a great experance and I think I can say that on behalf of the class, except for a little weather problem, but we made due, they did everything that they wanted to cover, maybe not as long of time due to rain shower and t-storms. It sounds to me you 2 guys wanted a class designed around you 2, I bet there was probally 12 to 14 other people there that a few of them was not the caliber you guys are but they probally got the most out of the class, but Travis and Max has to design a class for people from D to GM shooters, now I understand being the high caliber guys you are, that just maybe you feel you did not get your moneys worth, I kinda think it should have been up to you guys to see what the class was going to cover and then decide if the class was right for you, your right $550 is no drop in the bucket, but I seems to me that what you guys are really upset about is you did not check and see what the class is going to cover and you could not get your money back. As for my Max and Travis class I would do it againg if the chance comes around again, but I will tell you this I will ask that they make it more advanced than the first one, not that there was something wrong with the first class just so we dont over lap classes.

Erroneous presumptions aside thank you for your opinion and comments on how the class you put together went. As for the sarcasm...now I can appreciate that.

The erroneous presumptions-that we did not research the class before hand or that we wanted/requested a refund.

We fully expressed our concerns about making sure the class was right for us before hand to the organizer and were involved in multiple emails on the subject. Yes TT/MM were involved in the discussion.

At no time did we ever request a refund or even mention it. We participated in the class and they were paid for their time; simple as that. Not sure how you arrived at this particular presumption.

You have my gratitude for your opinions and comments on the class you organized. I think most of us value open discussion on any number of topics because whether we like it or not many of the decisions we make are based on information from others (optics, holsters, guns, you name it). I was sent a PM thanking me for my original comments from someone else who seems to have experienced similar occurrences in his years of training. So even though my opinion is deferent than yours there are others that have been in my proverbial shoes as well as yours.

As for the sarcasm…I’m a fan!

It could be misunderstood that we think more of our abilities than anyone else and again, I can appreciate the sarcasm. The facts are that we have taken many training classes and normally know what to expect and we hoped for great things from this class that just didn’t materialize. That doesn’t mean we expected a class designed solely for us, yes there were 12 students, yes some of them probably got more out of the class than us but when did it become okay to pay that much money to subsidize other peoples training just because they have more to learn (maybe in Obama’s world but not in mine). Even you said that a more advanced class would be requested if you put on another one…so you recognize that there were topics that could have been covered that would be more applicable to someone looking for more advanced training topics.

p.s. not trying to single you out just thought you had one of the more reasonable comments to respond to.

No worry, about singleing me out or anything else as far as that. I just think people have the power in their selves to turn a bad experance into something good, I understand you are dissapointed, just turn something that was learned in the class into a high light and practice that one thing until you are the best in the cournty and then you can look back and say it was TT and MM who made me learn to do that, them it's all good. That is something I use to do when I coached little girl soccer, I told them that I wanted them to learn 1 thing this season, learn it well and be the best at that one thing, then I would show them several things and I would let them pick what they wanted to learn. Good luck with your training.

[Kahrnage]

Sudden Death, thanks for your comments.

I’ll let others chime in for a while.

[CAB33]

Travis and Max

Thanks for the video.

The stages look great!

[EmanP]

Thanks to the mods for opening this back up. I think it's important to share the experiences we all have, be they good or bad if you want to call them that.

We never came down on Travis or Max and never had anything but the highest of praise for each of them. What information they did relay they did a great job on. I don't know how anyone can say that we're coming down on them or being negative. Perhaps a mirror is in order there for those individuals.

We had our reservations even before we signed up for this class. Although we asked for an outline there was pressure to sign up to make sure that we got a spot and so we never got one. Even still, we expressed our concern as did others and we were told that they were looked after and that the instructors would ensure that everyones needs were met regardless of abilites and that kind of thing. As such, we expected what was promised. If we thought we were all that to begin with, we wouldn't have devoted our limited resources to it. If we had any idea of what we actually got ahead of time (as it turned out), we wouldn't have signed up. Fact is, we need to know how to improve and so we signed up. In my opinion, we shouldn't have had to try to work at extracting feedback and the feedback we did get was lacking. Kahrnage has already addressed alot of this.

Like he said, everything is a learning experience, and we posted ours here so that others might learn from that experience as well, good, bad, indifferent or whatever else you want to call it. We don't need to get into any grade school arguements here. It is ironic that fingers get pointed at us as if it was our fault our class was lacking.

[EmanP]

"Hi Ari,

Thanks for the message! This is a common concern. With two instructors there is way more one-on-one time as well as far more diagnostic analysis. We get a lot of feedback after the class that all levels were taken care of. We will also provide a custom training program for further individual improvement.

Please let me know if there are further concerns.

I hope all is well!

Travis"

I guess it was the diagnostic analysis that we were looking for.

[Aristotle]

The intentions of this thread was simply to share my video and discuss the match from Renton.

Emanual and TJ, I am very sorry you guys did not get out of the training what you had anticipated. And I am not going to impose on your rite to free speech, but please find/open another thread to discuss this.

If you have any direct comments or concerns towards me about the class, I would much appreciate a direct and private conversation regarding this, and I'd be happy to talk with you about it. Your comments make me feel like I roped you guys into this class, and provided a bad atmosphere for the class, if that is the case, I would rather appreciate a direct conversation and not via a public forum. You guys know me, I am easy to find and talk to.

Ari B

[Kahrnage]

The intentions of this thread was simply to share my video and discuss the match from Renton.

Emanual and TJ, I am very sorry you guys did not get out of the training what you had anticipated. And I am not going to impose on your rite to free speech, but please find/open another thread to discuss this.

If you have any direct comments or concerns towards me about the class, I would much appreciate a direct and private conversation regarding this, and I'd be happy to talk with you about it. Your comments make me feel like I roped you guys into this class, and provided a bad atmosphere for the class, if that is the case, I would rather appreciate a direct conversation and not via a public forum. You guys know me, I am easy to find and talk to.

Ari B

You are not to blame for anything...rather to be thanked for your efforts.

You coordinated a class and followed it up with an amazing section match.

I thank you for that and I really have nothing else to say about the class that hasn't been said already.

[Aristotle]

Okay, sorry for my reaction then and reading into it incorrectly. Had someone walking past my house this evening trying to start something with me, when he returned a few minutes later with his friend and what could be viewed as a deadly weapon (my neighbors outdoor garden lights he ripped out) I had to make a quick call to the police. Needless to say, I'm a little wound up and rattled as I am up with my windows open hoping they don't return.

See you guys this Sunday.

[Duane Thomas]

But did you have your Dad's refurbished Rossi .38 with you? That's the important thing.

[Aristotle]

Absolutely Duane, and it's still on me. Course, my shotty is not too far away rite now either. I have a strange feeling these guys were the same guys trying to steal my truck a few months ago. On a nice note, I finally got to meet my neighbor down the street when I helped him locate his garden light they ripped off and threw across the street from my house. Too bad it was under those circumstances.

They haven't returned, so I guess I can get some rest. My CCTV camera is recording everything in my front yard rite now anyhow.

[EmanP]

I hope everything's ok in your neighborhood.

I don't want you feeling like any of anything is your fault Ari. You didn't rope us into anything and you certainly didn't provide any kind of negative atmoshpere. What you did was bust your ass to put on the best match this year and get this class together. I now how difficult it is to get a class organized and all the associated work that entails. I also know how impossible it is to get any kind of an outline or syllabus from on instructor to get to perspective students. I didn't mean to make you feel like you did a bad job at anything. I only have the greatest of thanks for you in all the work you put into making it all happen. Thank you!

[Aristotle]

Received an email from Travis and I thought I would share this as it goes out just as much to my volunteers for the match, as it is for me, I can't pull something like this off on my own.

I'm sure he's just being really nice, but it sure made me very proud.

Ari,

I'd like to thank you again for the job you did on the class and the match. That is easily the best club match I've ever shot in my life! I hope the shooters up there appreciate you and the job you're doing. Please consider relocating to my area so I can shoot your matches more often! :-)

Thank You,

Travis Tomasie

[Kahrnage]

Received an email from Travis and I thought I would share this as it goes out just as much to my volunteers for the match, as it is for me, I can't pull something like this off on my own.

I'm sure he's just being really nice, but it sure made me very proud.

Ari,

I'd like to thank you again for the job you did on the class and the match. That is easily the best club match I've ever shot in my life! I hope the shooters up there appreciate you and the job you're doing. Please consider relocating to my area so I can shoot your matches more often! :-)

Thank You,

Travis Tomasie

I think he was just being honest. When you have people setting up matches that also shoot multiple other matches per month (every weekend for a few people) you tend to get well experienced shooters who know what they like and know how to change things up a bit. I think your match excelled at doing just that.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Kahrnage

[EmanP]

I thought this was pretty relavent. http://pistol-training.com/archives/3187

[pries81]

I really think I need to add some comments to this discussion as someone who took the class. It is also important to note that I haven't taken any other classes.

The class was well organized and MM/TT are very good instructors. Not only do they present well, but they know their topics.

They also are very good at seeing what the students do wrong. They corrected me on many things during the lecture/drill period of the class. I, for example, entered and exited shooting positions inefficiently. I was also not transitioning the pistol as soon as the sights lifted and I had called my shots (I'm saving so much time on just that alone! I am going to send MM flowers for that one!). Not many other instructors would catch that.

On match day, MM even stopped me and told me, quite frankly, that I needed to shoot my own game and be solid. As simple as that sounds it is a big deal. Not only does it relate to the physical portion of my game but the mental side as well.

This is the biggest tool I took away from the class: Attitude. I have to change my attitude, practice habits, and mental game to affect my scores.

E and Karh. I too was expecting more on the second day. I was hoping for some more stage tactics advice. Shooting a match with them was great! We got tips by observing, and even some feedback, however not so much instruction. My perception was that we were on a squad with them, but not in a class.

I don't intend for these comments to have an overall negative connotation. The class was exceptional and I would recommend it to anyone regardless of skill level. I told myself I would glean as much as possible from those guys but I came far from that goal. There was too much to cover and too much to absorb.

[spanky]

So Travis liked the stages?

[EmanP]

Thanks for weighing in on this Scott. I think as many different perspectives as we can get on any topic is a good thing to help balance things. I think the most helpful things I got out of the class was the video I took of them shooting to break things down and watch details. There are a lot of things you can't get from watching though and that's what I was hoping to get. I'm glad that you got some input that helped you. You're already blazing fast!

[sperman]

I've taken two classes with Max and Travis, and enjoyed both of them. I think the choice to spend one day shooting a match may be part of the reason for disappointment. Looking back at the classes I was involved with, it would have been a different experience if we only had one day on the range.

Everyone is given a survey at the end of the class. If you are honest with your opinions I'm sure that Max and Travis will take it into consideration.

[EmanP]

No survey was given, no debrief, no talk, no feedback requested. I tried to go on the site and take that but you can't send it so I copied and pasted it and sent it to the both of them. That was on 5/26, still no reply. Ironic that we were the ones asking for feedback and didn't get it and they didn't ask for it but I sent it.

Edited June 18, 2010 by EmanP

[-M2]

Hey Guys,

Here are our comments from Double Impact...

First off, I want to thank Ari for putting together a great class and amazing stages. It was the best club match I have ever shot and easily could have been a sectional or a mini Area Championship. Also, it is extremely hard to put together a full class while balancing everyone's work schedule, personal life, range conflicts, etc... I believe it was clear Ari gave his all to not only host our class but to give us the best possible stages to shoot on Sunday.

The fact that weather was a big issue and the range (shotgun shooters making tons of noise) is out of our and Ari's control. Sure, I would love to have a club house for the classroom portion in all of our courses but it just isn't possible. Due to the weather giving us slightly a late start while waiting for the remaining students to get there, Travis and I stayed running our drills with the class until 7:00pm or 7:30pm on day 1. That's just how we do business. We train to standard and not to time.

Emanuel and TJ- Can you guys honestly say you got nothing from the course and should have purchased bullets instead? What a joke. I know for a fact we changed many of things on each of you. You see, as a World Champion and top instructors it was easy to pick out your closed minded/ better than everyone else attitudes as you stood during the entire classroom portion with your arms folded. That is not a personal attack on you but it happens from time to time. It is important that Travis and I can identify these individuals and give them as much constructive criticism as possible. I remember changing a great deal on each of you guys which is why I find this post so weird. I felt really good about working with each of you and think you both have potential.

The course that you guys had us run is our custom course. I feel our standard 2 day courses gives much more instructing time for each of the students. However, during the match we did give critiques as shooters came off of the stages. I personally remember walking individuals through the stages not only before they shot but also immediately following their run and showing them the mistakes they made and how to correct them. Remember, it was a large match with technical stages and time was an issue as there were nearly 100 shooters to run through during the day. The squad following us had already skipped us once during the match as we were taking so much time due to critiques and extra walk thru time.

I understand you are upset that I haven't posted here (I am not active in this forum at all) and that I haven't emailed you back. You said you emailed me on 5/26 but look at your first post in this forum. You posted here on the 26th as well. Meaning, you gave me no time at all to handle this in a professional manner through email or by phone. You instead immediately went on to the largest forum of our sport, which is how Travis and I provide for our families and trashed us. I would have been happy to work with you and even offer you and TJ both to join us next time we are in the area for our standard 2 day course (both days of instructing, free of charge) so you would get more instructing time instead of 1 day of teaching and a long second day of only shooting 8 stages. However, you didn't give me anytime to react.

We took personal offense to the way you handled this situation and wish things could have worked out differently. That said, we listen to all of our course critiques that are sent in to us and take what we can from them to make us better. In fact, since the WA course we have taught 3 other courses with some of your comments in mind and the students gave us standing ovations and amazing feed back. Therefore, I thank you for your honesty and feed back from our class in WA.

I truly hope you can open your minds to the vast amount of information that Travis and I gave during the course which will allow your game to go to the next level. We wish you both the best of luck and would like the opportunity to work with you again in the future.

Lastly, we would appreciate you to email us directly with any other comments/concerns or feel free to call the number I provided each of you.

All the best,

Max Michel and Travis Tomasie

[Kahrnage]

This was my comment...That said Max and Travis are great people with some amazing skills and are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet (nice to the point that they really don't want to point out that you are doing something wrong and tell you to correct it) but they are good people for sure. All experiences are profitable and this one was as well, just not equal to my expectations or financial expenditure. That's my 2 cents worth.

I do not believe that to be an attack, a claim to have learned nothing, or that my repeated requests for critiques were an expression of close-mindedness. There is a difference between learning something and equivalency of value for financial expenditure. I did not then or now intend any personal attack to either of you and I will send you an email follow up to this post.

[SteveZ]

Can you guys honestly say you got nothing from the course and should have purchased bullets instead? What a joke. ....You see, as a World Champion and top instructors it was easy to pick out your closed minded/ better than everyone else attitudes as you stood during the entire classroom portion with your arms folded. That is not a personal attack on you ...

Max...Max...Max. You guys are running this as a business...no? You do know the first rule of customer relations of a business is that the customer is always right (even when their wrong)? The second rule....always give the customers a little more than they expect. Seems that you missed rule #1 but got rule #2 right...because I don't think Eman or TJ expected this rant.

Go back and read your post and honestly ask yourself...does the above NOT sound like a personal attack because it sure sounds like one to me (i.e what a joke...your closed mind..better than everyone else.....attitude, etc)

We took personal offense to the way you handled this situation...

evidently. Max you're an ambassador to the sport and along with the glory comes the fact that you are held to a higher standard like it or not...sorry but the above just took it down a notch.....in my opinion which I'm sure isn't shared by everyone else. Just calling 'em as I see 'em. And now I expect a moderator to be by any second now to shut this down.

Edited June 20, 2010 by SteveZ