Thumb-cocking your pistol in the holster

[Ed Deegan]

This may be a dumb question, but shooter receives MR. Shooter thumb cocks pistol and applies safety while in the holster. The shooter then draws pistol and does the normal pre-stage routine. Shooter then loads pistol, receives remaining commands and commences to shoot stage.

Besides not verifying the gun is actually empty (which isn't very smart), it doesn't appear to be a violation of 10.5.11 or any other rule.

Am I missing something else?

[Larry White]

Lots of things in life that dont break any rules that are just plain stupid, thats one of them.----------Larry

[steel1212]

Lots of things in life that dont break any rules that are just plain stupid, thats one of them.----------Larry

I draw rack the slide several times, apply safety and reholster. Doesn't take that long and its another piece of safety in my routine.

[mhs]

This may be a dumb question, but shooter receives MR. Shooter thumb cocks pistol and applies safety while in the holster. The shooter then draws pistol and does the normal pre-stage routine. Shooter then loads pistol, receives remaining commands and commences to shoot stage.

Besides not verifying the gun is actually empty (which isn't very smart), it doesn't appear to be a violation of 10.5.11 or any other rule.

Am I missing something else?

Not that I can find.

[Gary Stevens]

No rule violation since the gun is not loaded by rule.

We did discover one shooter at last years Area 8 that loaded his gun, put the gun in the holster, then clicked the safety on and off a few times as part of his make ready routine.

Short story he left the match early.

Gary

[drodriguez]

A friend of mine was an RO at the steel nationals this year and he told me the super squad was loading a mag into the gun but not chambering and they would reholster to then draw and take a sight picture. I think that was ok according to there rules. No uspsa rules

[Gary Stevens]

USPSA allows loaded or unloaded sight pictures.

[kgunz11]

Lots of things in life that dont break any rules that are just plain stupid, thats one of them.----------Larry

What's stupid about that? I've done it a few times.

After the make ready command is given, thumb cock the gun, apply safety, draw and fry fire on the first target, insert mag, rack slide, assume start position. I don't do it on every stage, but then I don't dry at the first target on every stage. I might take a sight picture, but not dry fire. In the event of an awkward position or a barricade, I'll almost always dry fire on the first target as the situation dictates.

[sperman]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92610&view=&hl=hammer&fromsearch=1

[George Jones]

USPSA rules essentially say that you cannot have a loaded single-action gun with the hammer cocked and the safety off while in the holster. If the gun is not loaded, there is no rule violation.

Having a loaded mag in the gun (even if no round in the chamber) would result in a DQ.

I (personally) consider it a poor technique. New shooters are like sponges - they absorb both good things and bad things. We should not be doing things that a newer shooter might misinterpret and do at the wrong time and wrong place.

There's a cleaner and (IMO) much safer way to do it as mentioned by steel1212.

[Ed Deegan]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92610&view=&hl=hammer&fromsearch=1

Thanks, I did search but since the change in format, the search function comes up with a ton of stuff that really makes me wonder.

I will search harder next time.

[Ed Deegan]

Thanks everyone for their replies.

I went the through the rulebook before posting, and could not find a "dq", but...

[Jadeslade]

http://www.brianenos...er&fromsearch=1

Thanks, I did search but since the change in format, the search function comes up with a ton of stuff that really makes me wonder.

I will search harder next time.

Try using Google to search and pin down. The forum search engine is really sensitive but not specific.

[Schutzenmeister]

USPSA rules essentially say that you cannot have a loaded single-action gun with the hammer cocked and the safety off while in the holster. If the gun is not loaded, there is no rule violation.

Having a loaded mag in the gun (even if no round in the chamber) would result in a DQ.

I (personally) consider it a poor technique. New shooters are like sponges - they absorb both good things and bad things. We should not be doing things that a newer shooter might misinterpret and do at the wrong time and wrong place.

There's a cleaner and (IMO) much safer way to do it as mentioned by steel1212.

George - Technical question:

MR signifies the start of the CoF (8.3.1.) For all intents and purposes, we treat the gun as loaded from that point forward as a matter of convention. (e.g., You drop it, you've dropped a loaded gun, etc.) Hence, cocking the gun in the holster THEN applying the safety would, for a brief period have a "technically loaded" gun in the holster cocked and no safety applied. Why would that NOT be a violation of 10.5.11?

(Yes, I know it's splitting hairs, but I am curious as to why this would not be considered a violation ...)

Thanks

[aztecdriver]

George - Technical question:

MR signifies the start of the CoF (8.3.1.) For all intents and purposes, we treat the gun as loaded from that point forward as a matter of convention. (e.g., You drop it, you've dropped a loaded gun, etc.) Hence, cocking the gun in the holster THEN applying the safety would, for a brief period have a "technically loaded" gun in the holster cocked and no safety applied. Why would that NOT be a violation of 10.5.11?

(Yes, I know it's splitting hairs, but I am curious as to why this would not be considered a violation ...)

Thanks

I'm not George, but I have an answer:

Short answer - MR does not define the handgun as being loaded - simply the opening of the course of fire and the time to make ready. The appendix defines a loaded handgun.

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not.

Thus, it simply doesn't matter if the gun is considered loaded or not if it's dropped after Make Ready.

On the other hand - 10.5.11 makes equally clear that holstering of a loaded handgun (SA) without the safety applied is a DQ.

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

Personally, I follow the rule that I always treat a weapon as loaded until I've verified otherwise, therefore cocking the hammer and applying the safety then doing a dryfire draw as described would violate my personal policy - I'll always draw, cycle the slide and verify unloaded before dropping the hammer on an empty chamber.

[Nik Habicht]

George - Technical question:

MR signifies the start of the CoF (8.3.1.) For all intents and purposes, we treat the gun as loaded from that point forward as a matter of convention. (e.g., You drop it, you've dropped a loaded gun, etc.) Hence, cocking the gun in the holster THEN applying the safety would, for a brief period have a "technically loaded" gun in the holster cocked and no safety applied. Why would that NOT be a violation of 10.5.11?

(Yes, I know it's splitting hairs, but I am curious as to why this would not be considered a violation ...)

Thanks

I'm not George, but I have an answer:

Short answer - MR does not define the handgun as being loaded - simply the opening of the course of fire and the time to make ready. The appendix defines a loaded handgun.

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not.

Thus, it simply doesn't matter if the gun is considered loaded or not if it's dropped after Make Ready.

On the other hand - 10.5.11 makes equally clear that holstering of a loaded handgun (SA) without the safety applied is a DQ.

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

Personally, I follow the rule that I always treat a weapon as loaded until I've verified otherwise, therefore cocking the hammer and applying the safety then doing a dryfire draw as described would violate my personal policy - I'll always draw, cycle the slide and verify unloaded before dropping the hammer on an empty chamber.

Mike,

I agree with the above. We've pretty much decided that dropping a gun during the COF is a dq, and 10.5.3 simply clarifies that dropping an unloaded gun during the COF doesn't get anyone a pass, i.e. you can't argue "it wasn't unsafe" at arbitration.....

10.5.11 is pretty clear too....

[Schutzenmeister]

Well ... That's pretty much what I figured folks would say. Soooo ... If we REALLY think this practice is a problem how about changing 10.5.11 like this:

Having a Hholstereding a loaded handgun at any time during a course of fire, in any of the following conditions: [...]

Remember that one should not have a loaded gun at any other time, therefore cocked and unlocked outside a CoF should't be anything more than it is right now. (RO takes you somewhere safe, inspects your chamber, and advises you not to do that again ...)

Just a thought ...

[wide45]

10.5.11 is pretty clear too....

Is it?

Looks to me that is says the act of holstering a loaded gun without first engaging the safety is prohibited.

Nothing says you must keep the safety on, once its been placed in the holster.

A bit of drift from the original question, but it has been answered.

USPSA rules essentially say that you cannot have a loaded single-action gun with the hammer cocked and the safety off while in the holster...

Show me this rule, because that's not what 10.5.11 says. No doubt it was meant to.

Edited May 20, 2010 by wide45

[sperman]

I guess I would like an explanation from the guys who think this is a bad practice. Even if the gun is loaded, you still aren't ever pointing it at anything you don't want to destroy. Once you draw the gun and start the dry-fire routine, the gun is pointed safely downrange.

If the gun were loaded, if the hammer slipped while trying to pull it back, if the hammer didn't stop at the half cock notch then something bad could happen. Maybe it's a risk that doesn't have to be taken, but the potential for a problem is very small (IMO.)

[mhs]

No rule violation since the gun is not loaded by rule.

We did discover one shooter at last years Area 8 that loaded his gun, put the gun in the holster, then clicked the safety on and off a few times as part of his make ready routine.

Short story he left the match early.

Gary

What rule was cited in the DQ?

[Gary Stevens]

If I recall correctly, 10.5.11.1

The arguement that you can do anything thing with a single action gun's safety once you have holstered it is using the "how many DRL's can dance on the head of an RO" logic, IMO.

For anyone who really believes that logic, come to Area 8 this year, announce what you are going to do, and you will be given an opportunity to present your logic to an Arbitration Committee if you so choose.

Gary

[George Jones]

USPSA rules essentially say that you cannot have a loaded single-action gun with the hammer cocked and the safety off while in the holster...

Show me this rule, because that's not what 10.5.11 says. No doubt it was meant to.

I'll have to stand on 10.5.11.1

I'll also reference the first sentence under 10.5 - "but not limited to".

I realize we can play wordsmith with "holstering" vs "holstered", but as Gary says that could end up with the ArbCom.

Having seen enough guns with hammers that follow, I'll stand on that approach with a clear conscience.

Edited May 21, 2010 by George Jones

[moverfive]

I guess I would like an explanation from the guys who think this is a bad practice. Even if the gun is loaded, you still aren't ever pointing it at anything you don't want to destroy. Once you draw the gun and start the dry-fire routine, the gun is pointed safely downrange.

If the gun were loaded, if the hammer slipped while trying to pull it back, if the hammer didn't stop at the half cock notch then something bad could happen. Maybe it's a risk that doesn't have to be taken, but the potential for a problem is very small (IMO.)

You don't hear about these incidents too often today......but prior to these REALLY good holsters we have today, I know of a couple of people that holstered their gun with the safety off and the gun got off a few rounds before they were able to the gun BACK out of the holster. In other words, the gun's weight was was pushing on their triggers and because the safeties were engage - no problem. But if they had clicked off the safety while the gun was in the holster - bang, bang.....or in one case - bang, bang, bang, bang.

[aztecdriver]

I guess I would like an explanation from the guys who think this is a bad practice. Even if the gun is loaded, you still aren't ever pointing it at anything you don't want to destroy. Once you draw the gun and start the dry-fire routine, the gun is pointed safely downrange.

If the gun were loaded, if the hammer slipped while trying to pull it back, if the hammer didn't stop at the half cock notch then something bad could happen. Maybe it's a risk that doesn't have to be taken, but the potential for a problem is very small (IMO.)

Hey Scott,

It's not so much that I think the practice is bad - it just violates a principal that I've always gone by IN GENERAL gunhandling in that if I'm going to depress the trigger and expect the gun NOT to go off, I'm going to double check it first. One could state that the last time you holstered on the previous course of fire that was done with the "hammer down" command and action - and I agree. Chances are very slim it's ever going to be a problem. My personal practice outside of USPSA requires the double check - so I'm going to do that everytime, regardless.

I also don't feel it's a practice that needs rule changes to address.

[sperman]

I guess I would like an explanation from the guys who think this is a bad practice. Even if the gun is loaded, you still aren't ever pointing it at anything you don't want to destroy. Once you draw the gun and start the dry-fire routine, the gun is pointed safely downrange.

If the gun were loaded, if the hammer slipped while trying to pull it back, if the hammer didn't stop at the half cock notch then something bad could happen. Maybe it's a risk that doesn't have to be taken, but the potential for a problem is very small (IMO.)

You don't hear about these incidents too often today......but prior to these REALLY good holsters we have today, I know of a couple of people that holstered their gun with the safety off and the gun got off a few rounds before they were able to the gun BACK out of the holster. In other words, the gun's weight was was pushing on their triggers and because the safeties were engage - no problem. But if they had clicked off the safety while the gun was in the holster - bang, bang.....or in one case - bang, bang, bang, bang.

We're not talking about holstering a loaded weapon with the safety off. We're talking about pulling the hammer back on an unloaded weapon that is already in the holster.