Remington 870

[SinistralRifleman]

The main place I found a pump to be limiting was when doing anything other than standing straight up shooting in an open area. Some people can run pumps as fast as autos, but the more awkward the shooting position, the harder that becomes.

Around barricades = slower

Supporting on barricade for a slug shot = slower

kneeling = slower

prone = way slower

I wasn't conscious of these things until I had attained a certain level of skill and starting consciously thinking about where I was wasting time. An auto makes all those things above much easier and you will be less fatigued on the stage; the longer the stage the more of an issue that can be.

[DocMcG]

Lisa,

Are you referencing "riding" recoil in order to quickly cycle the 870 or lowering the felt recoil? Very curious because you are getting a wide variety of answers.

Kyle

(Mods - Sorry for the double question in two different posts. -KM)

Yes, "riding" would be the way to describe it. I haven't tried it, though. Haven't touched the shotgun since the last time it bruised me. It left very large bruises.

Lisa,

Thanks for the response. I will limit my comments to the reduction of recoil on the 870 rather than comment on which platform is best. Here are a couple of thoughts I have related to reduction of "felt" recoil in your 870.

1. The loads you use will change the levels of felt recoil. Many have suggested lighter loads to reduce recoil. I agree.

2. Second, you mention you are getting bruised. I would strongly suggest that you acquire a coach who will teach you proper stance, posture, balance, cheek weld, etc. I remember the first time I received coaching from a professional and the difference was amazing! If your body position and weapon position are both correct along with technique, very little bruising should occur (unless you bruise easily) and your body will properly absorb and transfer energy from recoil. There is a forum member named FDQ who coached shotgun for several years at a prominent "Military University." It is his story to tell, so I will not go into his credentials, but he knows his stuff and I have watched in awe as he cycles a pump gun faster than many can operate an auto! Drop him a line with questions - he's a nice guy!

3. Riding Recoil - It is truly a neat thing to watch a shooter who knows how to utilize recoil to operate the action of a pump shotgun. Here are two YouTube links. The first is a shooter who does not utilize recoil to operate the action and the second does. The first shooter fires then operates the action and repeats. With the second shooter notice how the action comes back with recoil to quickly operate the action and comes forward to finish the cycle as the sights come back on target.

Shooter 1:

Shooter 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Y2KsjxTD8 (Here is another:

)

4. If recoil is still an issue you may try equipment modifications such as porting or a Knoxx recoil reduction stock. Be careful of porting because it may throw you into a different class or may not be allowed by certain matches.

Here is an interesting video of the Knoxx system:

Good luck with it! The pump gun may not be the fastest, but it is a good place to cut your teeth and learn the basics.

Cheers,

Kyle

Edited April 7, 2010 by DocMcG

[bdpaz]

I did some dry firing last night to try out the push-pull method with my Mossberg 590 and the first thing I noticed is that the stock is too long. There is no way I can comfortably reach the fore end in a squared-off stance with the butt firmly against my shoulder. I'm 5'10" and, assuming that the she is shorter, Lisa is probably getting beat up because she has to use a bladed stance and can't securely set the stock against her body.

I was looking to get a semi-auto but now I'm on a mission to make the pump work first. I'll have a shorter stock before the match Saturday so I can try the push-pull method correctly (or as correctly as I can understand it from a internet video) and I'll see how it works.

[Lisa C]

My computer is down and am trying to read this thread on an 8" screen with poor resolution. Thanks for the help.

[DocMcG]

I did some dry firing last night to try out the push-pull method with my Mossberg 590 and the first thing I noticed is that the stock is too long. There is no way I can comfortably reach the fore end in a squared-off stance with the butt firmly against my shoulder. I'm 5'10" and, assuming that the she is shorter, Lisa is probably getting beat up because she has to use a bladed stance and can't securely set the stock against her body.

I was looking to get a semi-auto but now I'm on a mission to make the pump work first. I'll have a shorter stock before the match Saturday so I can try the push-pull method correctly (or as correctly as I can understand it from a internet video) and I'll see how it works.

I am not sure I agree with the logic behind pushing forward with the dominant/grip hand and pulling backward with the other hand. Mount the shotgun properly and firmly into the chest/inner shoulder, lock the cheek on the stock and apply rearward pressure with the hand that is on the slide. This will begin the cycle as soon as the shot breaks and allows you to ride the recoil back. No need to push forward with the dominant hand.

Just my $.02

Cheers,

Kyle

[bdpaz]

I am not sure I agree with the logic behind pushing forward with the dominant/grip hand and pulling backward with the other hand.

It is pulling back with the dominant hand enough to hold the stock against the body while pushing the fore end forward - "stretching the gun" as someone else described it. As I understand it, it isn't about cycling the gun quickly but about minimizing felt recoil and muzzle movement. Although after my exhaustive five minutes of dry practice I believe it will be quick as I think that a dynamic hold, whether pushing or pulling the slide, makes it easier to get moving than when statically supporting the gun.

I'll try it this weekend - if I can actually remember to do it once the timer beeps.

Edited April 9, 2010 by bdpaz

[DocMcG]

I am not sure I agree with the logic behind pushing forward with the dominant/grip hand and pulling backward with the other hand.

It is pulling back with the dominant hand enough to hold the stock against the body while pushing the fore end forward - "stretching the gun" as someone else described it. As I understand it, it isn't about cycling the gun quickly but about minimizing felt recoil and muzzle movement. Although after my exhaustive five minutes of dry practice I believe it will be quick as I think that a dynamic hold, whether pushing or pulling the slide, makes it easier to get moving than when statically supporting the gun.

I'll try it this weekend - if I can actually remember to do it once the timer beeps.

Well, if it is anything like any new skill I have tried to implement - it is never easy. I usually hear, "If you are finished, unload and show clear..." and then I think to myself, "Darn, I was going to do that new thing I have been practicing!"

Good luck with it!

Cheers,

Kyle

Edited April 9, 2010 by DocMcG

[Doug S]

Lisa,

Your 870 will recoil all most always more than a semi-auto due to the fact that the action on the 870 is manually un-locked. Most semi's bleed off gas to actuate the action and the bolt is controlled by a recoil spring that is normally inside the stock. About the only way I know of to reduce the recoil of the 870 is to put a pistol grip stock on it. By holding onto the pistol grip and pushing forward, it will cause some of the recoil to be absorbed into your shooting hand and arm instead of your shoulder. All of the 870's in our agency have pistol grip stocks and it seems to help a little bit, though not alot.

An advantage of the 870 is that it will run light loads since the action is manually operated. The 870 will run as fast as you can pump it, a semi will only run as fast as the action allows it to and may not function on light loads, since some of the gas has been bled off.

The Benelli's, FNH's and Remingtons are very good choices for semi autos and used Remington 1100's can be found for around $300-400. There was one in the USPSA classifieds, 2 weeks ago, that was set up for open division and it sold for $450. You might want to consider selling yours and buying a used 1100. There are parts for these shotguns readily available and fairly inexpensive.

I use a Winchester SX2 Practical (same as FNH) for Tactical and a Remington 1100 (that I bought for $325) for Open. I started with the 1100 in tactical and the only thing I added was the mag-tube extention, an Easy-loader and a set of fiber optic sights (about $120 more). When I converted it over to my open gun, I added a reddot sight and a speedwell/tec-loader (about $250 more).

Probably not the answers that you wanted but hopefully they will help. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

Doug

Doug,

Do I have this correct? Hold the pistol grip and push forward?

Lisa,

I use a push pull method. First insure you have the shotgun mounted in a snug mount, then pull back on the forend and push lightly on the pistol grip. Do not push hard enough to move the gun away from your shoulder because this will increase the felt recoil. What you are trying to achieve is to have your shooting hand and arm absorb some of the recoil. Another thing that my shooting buddy does to stop him from bruising is to use one of the PAST (I think that is what it's called) recoil pads that has its own harness. There is one made for female shooters that some how attaches to a bra strap so it stays in position.

Some one also mentioned a 2 3/4 dram load, that is a very good idea but you might have to use a tighter choke to get harder hits on steel. I use the 100 round bulk Winchester 3 dram 1 oz loads in my auto-loaders and then if there are a lot of heavier plates I change to a 3 1/4 dram 1 1/8 oz load and I almost always use Improved Cyl.

I thought I had read that your shotgun had a comp??? Are you shooting in Open division with a pump?

Doug

[StealthyBlagga]

A pistol grip stock can help spread the recoil impuls across both your strong (trigger) hand and shoulder, but be careful - actually pushing forward with your strong hand before firing the shot could push the stock off your shoulder a tad... if this happens, you WILL get a big bruise . Also, you may find that pulling back on the forend before firing the shot will cause the gun to lock up due to the way the tipping bolt works in the 870. As I mentioned earlier, pulling back on the forend works well with other pump shotguns, but not so much with the 870. You can learn to pump the gun fast by pulling the stock firmly into your shoulder with your strong hand but having a neutral grip on the forend with your weak hand, and resisting the recoil strongly with your shoulder... when the gun fires, it will tend to rise at the muzzle. For me at least, this naturally causes my weak hand to pull gently back on the forend and initiate cycling the gun.

While we are on the subject of fast pumping, if your gun is fitted with a magazine extension then doing the above could also uncover another design weakness with the 870 - a phenomenon called "shell surge". If you pump fast and find the chamber is empty, you have a shell surge problem. This problem is caused when the shotshell stack momentarily moves forwards in the mag tube due to the gun's recoil and the shell stack's inertia, thus causing a fail to feed from the mag. This can be bandaided with a stronger magazine spring, or fixed properly with a reworked/retimed forend.

Given your circumstances, I'm not sure it's wise to pour more $$$ into the 870 by buying a new stock for it etc. It's probably better to cut your losses, sell the gun and switch to the semi-auto you are going to end up with anyway.

Edited April 9, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

I thought I had read that your shotgun had a comp??? Are you shooting in Open division with a pump?

Doug

Well spotted. IIRC a VangComp barrel is backbored, and may or may not also have porting. If the barrel is indeed ported, then she will be bumped into Open division... a really bad place to be with a pump shotgun .

Edited April 9, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[SinistralRifleman]

Someone mentioned the Knoxx system...those recoil reducing stocks where the entire gun moves rearward slow down pumping. As the whole gun accelerates rearward, you have to work harder to keep up with cycling the pump rolling with the recoil. I've actually seen several people using these consistently have their support hand come off the pump as the gun comes reward recoiling into the stock.

[bdpaz]

I tried out the push-pull technique today (pushing the gun forward with the left/pump hand while pulling back with the right hand enough to make contact with the body) and it really worked well in reducing felt recoil and keeping the muzzle on target, and I was able to cycle the gun quickly. With practice you could shoot a pump as fast and almost as comfortably as a semi auto, at least while standing upright out in the open. And with a lot of practice you could do it every time without thinking about it. But you'd be spending a lot of time and effort to get to where the semi auto shooter is before he ever fires a shot. Given that, plus the other semi auto advantages already discussed, there isn't much reason to shoot a pump in the 3-Gun world (outside of divisions where they are required).

But if you need/want to run a pump gun try the push-pull method. My first shot today was a slug. The start position was with the gun aimed at the target so I made sure was set up in the push-pull and it worked. The sight stayed on target and I could have quickly fired a follow up if necessary. Shooting the Polish plate rack I had three shots (hits) much more quickly than I would have my my previous hold - followed by some weird shooter induced mechanical problem and it all fell apart. (See above regarding lots of practice to perfect ).

[P.E. Kelley]

Not my fastest work but watch the video a few times and you will see that I

pump only as fast as needed for the targets at hand.

I use a firm strong hand grip and pull smartly into the shoulder.

The "pump hand" just cycles the action and at closing brings the muzzle to bear on the next target.

Not really a "push/pull". I think of it as Self-Loading pistol slide closing bringing

the muzzle back to target. Not too heavy or light a recoil spring.

Although I shoot a Win 1300, I do not change techniques for 870's, BPS or MBergs.

My advise is start shooting Heavy Metal or sell the 870 and get a Self-Loader.

I have been running a pumpgun for 5 years. Stage finishes a major matches indicate

that I can hang with a bunch of the self-loaders, it just takes more effort.

Kinda like the art of Iron Sight Riflery!

Good luck.

Patrick

[bdpaz]

...can hang with a bunch of the self-loaders, it just takes more effort.

A very clear and concise version of what I was trying to say!

Having a limited amount of time and effort, I'm going switch to a semi auto and allocate some of that effort to things I can't buy. Like reloading skills so it doesn't look like I stopped to put on a shotgun shell juggling show in the middle of the stage.

[Lisa C]

Lisa,

Your 870 will recoil all most always more than a semi-auto due to the fact that the action on the 870 is manually un-locked. Most semi's bleed off gas to actuate the action and the bolt is controlled by a recoil spring that is normally inside the stock. About the only way I know of to reduce the recoil of the 870 is to put a pistol grip stock on it. By holding onto the pistol grip and pushing forward, it will cause some of the recoil to be absorbed into your shooting hand and arm instead of your shoulder. All of the 870's in our agency have pistol grip stocks and it seems to help a little bit, though not alot.

An advantage of the 870 is that it will run light loads since the action is manually operated. The 870 will run as fast as you can pump it, a semi will only run as fast as the action allows it to and may not function on light loads, since some of the gas has been bled off.

The Benelli's, FNH's and Remingtons are very good choices for semi autos and used Remington 1100's can be found for around $300-400. There was one in the USPSA classifieds, 2 weeks ago, that was set up for open division and it sold for $450. You might want to consider selling yours and buying a used 1100. There are parts for these shotguns readily available and fairly inexpensive.

I use a Winchester SX2 Practical (same as FNH) for Tactical and a Remington 1100 (that I bought for $325) for Open. I started with the 1100 in tactical and the only thing I added was the mag-tube extention, an Easy-loader and a set of fiber optic sights (about $120 more). When I converted it over to my open gun, I added a reddot sight and a speedwell/tec-loader (about $250 more).

Probably not the answers that you wanted but hopefully they will help. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

Doug

Doug,

Do I have this correct? Hold the pistol grip and push forward?

Lisa,

I use a push pull method. First insure you have the shotgun mounted in a snug mount, then pull back on the forend and push lightly on the pistol grip. Do not push hard enough to move the gun away from your shoulder because this will increase the felt recoil. What you are trying to achieve is to have your shooting hand and arm absorb some of the recoil. Another thing that my shooting buddy does to stop him from bruising is to use one of the PAST (I think that is what it's called) recoil pads that has its own harness. There is one made for female shooters that some how attaches to a bra strap so it stays in position.

Some one also mentioned a 2 3/4 dram load, that is a very good idea but you might have to use a tighter choke to get harder hits on steel. I use the 100 round bulk Winchester 3 dram 1 oz loads in my auto-loaders and then if there are a lot of heavier plates I change to a 3 1/4 dram 1 1/8 oz load and I almost always use Improved Cyl.

I thought I had read that your shotgun had a comp??? Are you shooting in Open division with a pump?

Doug

Doug,

LMAO about the bra strap!

The Vang Comp barrel puts me in Open, which I didn't realize it would at the time.

Lisa

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I have used an 870 since 1974 Lots of people are faster than me with them but that's OK. I have not experienced bruising since I started and learned how to hold the gun that was fit to me. I shoot 3 dram 8s and reduced recoil slugs and have no problems so my suggestion is this:

Find someone that can help you fit the shoulder stock to your body. If it is too long for you, there is no way to keep the necessary shoulder weld to stop the gun from beating the hell out of you. No matter what you are using, get it fit to you then play. If you have the original barrel get out of open :-)

Since you already use their product, contact Vang Comp through the web site. LINK They may be able to help

Edited April 16, 2010 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Alaskapopo]

I like using an 870 in 3 gun competition. The felt recoil is probably more (I have only shot a few autos, but it seems the case). If you are focused on competition specifically, then I would suggest that you go with an auto. I prefer using firearms that I would use for practical reasons (self-defense, etc...), so I shy away from autos myself.

I personally use a Remington 870, a Remington 7615P (pump action patrol rifle shooting .223), and a Beretta 92D in 3 gun competition. These are not the typical firearms used together in 3 gun competition. I shoot what I like, and enjoy using them in competition.

Find what you like and use that. I hope that you get that Benelli that you want.

A modern semi auto shotgun like those made by Benelli are also fine self defense weapons.

pat

[kurtm]

AHHHHHHH......I knew it would happen!!! Pat and I agree on something...a good semi auto!

[CrankyCrash]

Get a slip on Limb-Saver for that 870. I got one for my 870 and my 1100.

My 80 pound grandson was able to handle the recoil without any issues and even helped him gain accuracy as well as speed because he wasn't worried about the recoil knocking him around.

Only runs about $40 give or take.

[Lisa C]

Not my fastest work but watch the video a few times and you will see that I

pump only as fast as needed for the targets at hand.

I use a firm strong hand grip and pull smartly into the shoulder.

The "pump hand" just cycles the action and at closing brings the muzzle to bear on the next target.

Not really a "push/pull". I think of it as Self-Loading pistol slide closing bringing

the muzzle back to target. Not too heavy or light a recoil spring.

Although I shoot a Win 1300, I do not change techniques for 870's, BPS or MBergs.

My advise is start shooting Heavy Metal or sell the 870 and get a Self-Loader.

I have been running a pumpgun for 5 years. Stage finishes a major matches indicate

that I can hang with a bunch of the self-loaders, it just takes more effort.

Kinda like the art of Iron Sight Riflery!

Good luck.

Patrick

Patrick,

Smmoooth...thank for showing me and explaining the process.

[Lisa C]

I did some dry firing last night to try out the push-pull method with my Mossberg 590 and the first thing I noticed is that the stock is too long. There is no way I can comfortably reach the fore end in a squared-off stance with the butt firmly against my shoulder. I'm 5'10" and, assuming that the she is shorter, Lisa is probably getting beat up because she has to use a bladed stance and can't securely set the stock against her body.

I was looking to get a semi-auto but now I'm on a mission to make the pump work first. I'll have a shorter stock before the match Saturday so I can try the push-pull method correctly (or as correctly as I can understand it from a internet video) and I'll see how it works.

bdpaz,

Exactly...I'm shorter. I have the shortest, legal barrel I could have and put an adjustable buttstock with a good pad. Benelli is definitely the way to go but can't afford one right now.

What is your opinion of the bladed stance? I thought the rear leg helps with the recoil, no?

[1chota]

I did some dry firing last night to try out the push-pull method with my Mossberg 590 and the first thing I noticed is that the stock is too long. There is no way I can comfortably reach the fore end in a squared-off stance with the butt firmly against my shoulder. I'm 5'10" and, assuming that the she is shorter, Lisa is probably getting beat up because she has to use a bladed stance and can't securely set the stock against her body.

I was looking to get a semi-auto but now I'm on a mission to make the pump work first. I'll have a shorter stock before the match Saturday so I can try the push-pull method correctly (or as correctly as I can understand it from a internet video) and I'll see how it works.

bdpaz,

Exactly...I'm shorter. I have the shortest, legal barrel I could have and put an adjustable buttstock with a good pad. Benelli is definitely the way to go but can't afford one right now.

What is your opinion of the bladed stance? I thought the rear leg helps with the recoil, no?

rear leg helps with recoil. keep your shoulders more squared to the target and keep the buttstock in the pocket of the shoulder, more onto the collarbone than out on the shoulder muscle. that keeps the recoil in a straight line backward, not in the direction of the bladed position.right handed shooters who blade off have the gun recoil more to the right. with the shoulders squared more into the target the recoil goes more into the whole body, travelling down the back into the leg and not just into the point of the shoulder.

i hope this helps.

[Rob72]

Hi, Lisa,

I'm a new guy, and lots of folks here have far more experience than I do. In my defense, howver, I have put together some "practical applications" shotguns; I am very much a believer in enhanced performance through utilization of technology.

Having said that: A Vang barrel (backbored with lengthened forcing cone) will decrease the recoil impulse, making it more of a smooth shove vs a swift push. This is subjective, but a concensus among the 1/2 dozen people i know who have barrels like this (any good shotty smith can ream & backbore). I have no idea whether this will change the class in the same way porting would.

You say your stock is adjustable. I'm 5'10" and #185, and have found that an 11-12" LOP is optimal for me. It allows compression of muscle mass in the shoulder pocket. Basically the less you extend your arm forward, the more pectoral muscle you can flex behind the stock. It also changes cheekweld. Instead of laying your head/cheek on the stock, you are able to press your cheek against the flat of the stock (though still indexing on the cheekbone). I find recoilsliding alongside my face, instead of the comb doing a hatchet job on me. I also use pistol grip stocks, so that I can lock my wrist and flex my arm. This allows the "push" referred to earlier. The hand pushes forward and down (slightly), the tightened bicep pulls the stuck to the shoulder, and the shorter LOP allows the elbow to tuck tightly in to the side. All in all, this creates a tight triangle of tension that is easy to maintain, and controls things very well. CAVEAT- I am not a 3 gunner.

Also, I cannot recommend Kick Eeze recoil pads enough!

[Lisa C]

My computer is down and am trying to read this thread on an 8" screen with poor resolution. Thanks for the help.

Here are pictures of my Remington 870:

I don't know the official names of the changes made:

• four position collapsible butt stock
• shoulder pad
• cheek pad
• pistol grip
• Hogue front grip
• Vang comped barrel (this puts me in Open)
• door breach (ha...as if it was necessary)
• fits nine shells

Edited October 28, 2010 by Lisa C

[Lisa C]

Is there anyone who could help me with my Remington 870? It's been collecting dust for a year. In 3-gun matches, people have been letting me use their Benelli's.

Someone made a comment that proficiency is attainable and could even be preferred over semi-autos because the pump can actually aid in handling the recoil. Could anyone expound on this technique? Better yet, could someone teach me how to do this?

There are pictures of the 870 on page 2. Thanks for looking.