Flexmoney Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Visual patience. Follow-through. Shoot calling. Maaaaan...somebody ought to write a book. Or, start a shooting forum to talk about it. For me, visual patience is seeing what you need to see to ensure that an activity is going to be done correctly. (this may not be just shooting the shot, it could be seeing the mag into the gun, locating a position, picking a SPOT to define a target). Follow-through is staying with an activity enough to ensure that it was completed properly. The two terms can tend to blend together a bit. What they share is that...whatever the activity the shooter is engaged in, the shooter needs to be "all there". Calling...for me, that is almost like a detached observation. It's not the activity, it is the feedback we get while observing the activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 I am interested in the little transition from aiming (visual patience) to shot calling. Calling, in my mind, doesn't have a starting and stopping point. Calling is the feedback we get from our senses. It tells us what is going on. Pretend you are Captain Picard on the starship Enterprise. You give the orders based on the information that you have. Lt. Worf is back there firing the phasers. Commander Data is working the sensor arrays and feeding that info back to you. You don't just turn on the sensors after the phasers fire. (hmmmm...and you have a pilot in the right seat, moving you around in space...and an engineer who's job it is to make sure all the systems (skills) are in working order...and the Captain and First Officer could be the conscious and sub-conscious ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) I realize the mike..... But only after I am 2 targerts further along..... I get that too. I run through a stage and know right away that I had a poor hit in this or that area, (one of these three targets(at times a miss feels like the cycling changed ??)). But I am also making up shots on steel that are not yet audiable , subconciously, Sometimes on an edge hit, cool feeling when it starts to happen all on its own... Acually my shot calling is at a point that is only passive(I think). If its happening its happening on its own and takeing corrective measures on its own, weird feeling. But I want to control it and that takes up too much time thinking about it, ok where excactly was that sight ... When its happening its just happening, I guess I just need to shoot and stop thinking. I would say I'm in the middle of uploading the complete program at the moment so it just runs... Edited February 6, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Visual patience.Follow-through. Shoot calling. Maaaaan...somebody ought to write a book. Or, start a shooting forum to talk about it. For me, visual patience is seeing what you need to see to ensure that an activity is going to be done correctly. (this may not be just shooting the shot, it could be seeing the mag into the gun, locating a position, picking a SPOT to define a target). Follow-through is staying with an activity enough to ensure that it was completed properly. The two terms can tend to blend together a bit. What they share is that...whatever the activity the shooter is engaged in, the shooter needs to be "all there". Calling...for me, that is almost like a detached observation. It's not the activity, it is the feedback we get while observing the activity. The term follow-through glues the visual patience part to the shot calling in my experience. I agree that shot calling is not the activity, but the monitoring part of the shooting. But, sometimes there's a glitch in my follow-through, which somehow causes me to make a conscious decision if what I saw was "good enough". When this happens I get what Dirty Chamber describes. I will be on the next target when I realize I have to go back. The glitch part says it all I think (what you describe as having to be "all there"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) You can't miss, you can only hit where you are aiming, so learning "where" you are aiming for every shot has a lot of value IMO. Edited February 7, 2008 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Ohhh....I kinda like that. Thanks L2S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Upon the firing of each shot, you must see what you have to see to know whether or not it hit the target. It all comes down to that. Practice is for learning "that." You have to learn what you need to see to call every type of shot - from close, "arms length blasters," to the A-box at 50 yards. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I dunno.... I saw a trailer for some new Angelina Jolie (sp?) movie where it appears she shows how to get an IL approved, genetically encoded bullet to curve around obstacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Now the idiots in Washington will launch a bill to outlaw bullets that can shoot around corners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 See BE says the same thing just better That's why he can write books and I fix guns. Recently I've really learned (in my brain) that my improvement can only come from refinement. Putting focus on knowing where the shots are going have made it easier to control where they go. The better I refine my skill to simply know where the bullets are going (the moment the sights move) the better my shooting is overall. The "other" things seem to take care of themselves, but that is not to say they do not matter, that is just where I seem to be at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Recently I've really learned (in my brain) that my improvement can only come from refinement. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Upon the firing of each shot, you must see what you have to see to know whether or not it hit the target. It all comes down to that.Practice is for learning "that." You have to learn what you need to see to call every type of shot - from close, "arms length blasters," to the A-box at 50 yards. be When Brian says these things.... I feel like a monkey standing in front of a humming obelisk....(2001) Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 benos=zen philosopher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Upon the firing of each shot, you must see what you have to see to know whether or not it hit the target. It all comes down to that.Practice is for learning "that." You have to learn what you need to see to call every type of shot - from close, "arms length blasters," to the A-box at 50 yards. be I don't know if it's just me, but here goes: Sometimes when I do something, at the moment I do it I expect an outcome (for instance: to see something). This expectation , especially when combined with "haste" can really mess up the experience. It doesn't have to be shooting related. I realized it this morning when arriving at work by car. I left the car and walked away while grabbing my keys. I was a good 15 yds. away when I pushed the button and turned around simultaneously. I expected the blinkers to flash. I saw the blinkers flash, dimly. And as I turned ack around again, I noticed a form of doubt was still in my mind. I realized I had looked too quickly and my expectations of what I wanted/needed/expected to see, messed up my actual experience, leaving me in doubt. Well, doubt might not be the right word. I looked too quickly and the thought of whether I saw what I needed to see still occupied my mind. I was still making a decision based on what I saw. It might be a weird example, but my brain immediately drew the parrallel with shooting and calling the shot. The feeling I had was the same feeling I have when I move to the next target and my mind is still occupied withwhat happened on the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 What do you think of the idea that, when you reach a certain level, consciously modidying your technique to try to get a particular result is something that can go away - instead you just put the gun out in front of you, watch the sights, and any changes to the technique necessary to get the sights on target, hold them there until the gun fires, and have the sights track well in recoil, will be automatically applied by the subconscious? In other words, once you get to a certain point in your shooting, you move beyond technique, just watch the sights, and the technique kind of takes care of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 (edited) Yes I do. I'll add, I think it is a good goal to have every time you shoot live fire. Don't think, just do. Edited May 18, 2008 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 It could also be argued it's the way we should dry fire. I've heard the idea that "the place for the conscious mind is in dry fire practice, where you carefully analyze what you're doing, but then in a match let that go and shoot from the subconscious mind." The problem with that theory, I think, is that under stress we tend to revert to our most dominant trait. We may be able to put ourself in The Zone, but the moment something happens we didn't foresee, we come out of The Zone and back into our dominant trait, that we've trained ourselves into over endless hours of dry fire practice, i.e. we come out of subconscious mind into the conscious mind - and we fall apart. I've mentioned this before but I think it bears repeating here. Several years ago on this board someone asked the question, "What separates the very best Grand Masters from the rest of the best?" No one really had a good answer. There were a few comments about fast reflexes and dedication but that was it. I mentioned that to Grand Master Bruce Gray, who has shot with these guys most of his life, and he instantly answered, "A superior ability to turn the shooting over to the subconscious mind - and stay there no matter what happens." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I agree to a point. In my case I didn't focus on technique at all for awhile and thus got lazy behind the gun. The best shooting will always be done when you are only watching the sights for sure, but technique is something that still needs to be addressed at certain intervals to ensure it isn't eroding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 19, 2008 Author Share Posted May 19, 2008 Interesting stuff. The original intent behind this thread from 2002, was my realization that my performance...overwhelmingly...came from within. I think I was going from C-class to B-class at about the time of the original post. Maku Mozo. Don't be deluded. A shooting buddy asked me what that meant as we were driving home from a match yesterday. I had to take a pause. To explain something, means you have to learn it yourself. I'm not sure if I've learned enough. Don't be deluded, I explained, meant to lose your preconceived attachments. To lose the expectations. To lose the "supposed to's". It was to allow yourself to see things as they truly were. It can be tough. We often expect...which can hinder allowing us to accept. We apply filters (experiences, hearsay, teachings) that can alter true observation. We delude ourselves. "Impossible to miss"...that was a realization that came from knowing (and trusting) that the tool that was in my hand was capable of the performance that I was asking it for. Therefore, any substandard results...were NOT the fault of the equipment. Given that, it didn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that my performance was based on how I used the tool. Performance was an internal measure. Did I execute... Our game is simple...fundamentally. Brian covers the fundamentals rather well on this page. All we ever have to do to make a shot is to execute those simple fundamentals. If the shot is off, and the gun isn't "broken", we need to look internally for the fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 "What separates the very best Grand Masters from the rest of the best?" GM's know what they have to see or feel to instantly call any shot they might have to fire. They also know that is all they have to do. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 It is impossible to miss !!! with a .22 upper that is... I shot 550 rounds "non-stop" through my .22 upper tonight till I could not see the targets anymore from lack of light. What an insight this was. I could call virtually every shot and really drove the gun around just where I wanted it. I shot freestyle, stronghand, weakhand, everything I could think of. .22's have quite a flash in low light and I could see those black sights flash/lift like never before. Without the recoil I was able to really feel the trigger, the grip tension, "the Fundementals". I can still see the sights right now, over and over. This is still all soaking in but I realized how much "input" I have in keeping that gun where I want it. How much "negative input" we "add" to the gun as it fires, bad trigger, poor grip, shot discipline, flinch, push, whatever. I had 5 targets at various distances and could not place a shot outside the a-zone. This is one of those lightbulb moments where you perform a control/alt/delete and move on to a new understanding of what is happening, and what needs to happen !! Makes me think of when Brian said "the gun is floating in the air already perfectly lined up with the target and you just mold yourself around it" or something like that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Best training I've found for calling shots is ( and I know guys are gonna hate hearing this) bullseye shooting slowfire 50 yard competition, highpower rifle, smallbore rifle, and /or benchrest shooting. Guys LIVE and DIE by their data books which teach shot calling like its a religion. "I'm John and I shoot highpower rifle since 1980..."Hi John!" Shot calling is not rocket science...trust me....if they could teach this Marine infantry grunt to do it then anyone of reasonable intelligence(more than 5 working brain cells and at least 3 of them are not occupied by life support functions) could do it. JK "Support a sniper in the war on terror" WWW.AMERICANSNIPERS.ORG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) Well I was'nt talking about just calling your shots but I think your right. I call my long distance rifle shots pretty well, mabey too well, too trusting. I was shooting a local match and had my gun sighted in for my usual 69 SMK load but forgot I was shooting my cheaper 55 Hor. load which hits a little lower. I was shooting at targets at about 200yds and would fire and move, knowing 100% that the shot is there and the R.O. was not calling hit ?? Anyhow, in the previous post I was talking mostly about being in the zone. Sure it's not tough to call your shot with a .22 but when I shot 500 rounds nonstop, shoot 2 mags, load 2 mags, shoot 2 mags, I was really just shooting. I did not tape and the a-zones and upper b's looked like swiss cheese, I was so into what was happening while I fired a shot that I could not stop shooting. I had the realization that Flex mentioned how the gear is always capable of the shot and any c, d, or mike was in my hands, and head, alone. I was almost in a daze and knew I had to keep shooting to capitolized on the moment... Now to transfer this to the centerfire, it is a refreshment to my journey. Edited August 1, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Guys LIVE and DIE by their data books which teach shot calling like its a religion. Do you have a link to some info on those data books? How to's and such? I've use a method that was likely stolen from the High-power guys, but I could always use more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Dirty Chamber, Nice post. Everything is a possible "distraction form the shooting". You were able to remove some of the distrations, allowing you to get into the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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