MoNsTeR Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Glocks don't rule Production globally because under IPSC rules you can't reduce the triger to 1.25lbs like you can in the US. And THAT is a "huge advantage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Deleted to keep the peace. Think twice...post once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Did I say any of those things? <reads previous posts> Nope, guess not. Can't say I know what the hell your talking about then. Oh, you were hallucinating! I see, well just to clear the waters then I suppose I should elaborate. I don't think anyone would argue that a 1.25# Vanek trigger doesn't provide an advantage over the 5.5# stock trigger. I would also contend that it offers a substantial advantage over any DA/SA trigger. Now, other factors may be more important. Maybe you like a heavier gun, or a more vertical grip angle, or some other design element more than you like a super-light trigger pull. So of course I'm NOT telling you to trash your CZ and get a Glock, and I'm NOT implying that doing so will send you straight to GM. What I AM saying at this time is that Vince and others should realize that under US rules the Glock has the potential to provide a real, concrete advantage over other designs. I would also venture to bet that you will never, not once, see a Master or Grandmaster thumb-cock their DA auto in competition. This rule is for the benefit of NEW SHOOTERS at the level of CLUB MATCHES. A lot folks here don't seem to care about any match too small to have a prize table, and to them I say "don't sweat it" because it WILL NOT MATTER. Now if you're through putting words in my mouth, we can return to our regularly scheduled programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I think it's time to lock this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 MoNsTeR: My apologies. I went back and deleted my remarks for the good of the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 MoNsTeR:My apologies. I went back and deleted my remarks for the good of the forum. It must be that ultra light single action mouse button thats to blame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 This rule is for the benefit of NEW SHOOTERS at the level of CLUB MATCHES. Exactly. Not everyone that shoots USPSA wants to be the best damned shooter in the world; many (most?) just do it to have fun. Seems to me that the main focus of PD is Joe Blow who doesn't reload, owns some gun that he liked the looks of and bought at the local gun store, and got tired of simply putting holes in paper at the range. Chances are he doesn't practice, doesn't want to invest tons of money in anything besides ammo, and hates throwing a shot into the berm double-action just so he can shoot it single-action like all the paper-punching he used to do. If y'all think Joe Blow is a drain on the sport and sucks and shouldn't be a part of it, kiss USPSA goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 (After reading the first three pages of this thread), this may not be well received, but, I'm not in favor of the thumb cocking rule at all. I feel it encourages incompetent gunhandling, which, may very well increase first-shot ADs. And even if it doesn't, statistically, we're gonna look like a bunch of cowboys out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 OK, now I am back in the fray. I wholeheartedly agree with BE and I'll go one step more. Allowing a person to cock the pistol so they don't have to fling a shot into the berm is something I just can not comprehend. Since when do we need to rewrite the rule book so people can circumvent learning how to shoot? That's just plain nuts. Shoot the first shot DA, call the shot, then make it up or take the miss. For those of you who think I don't support the average Joe, you couldn't be further from the truth. I founded a freaking local club, built the target stands, built the props, purchased the materials and targets with my own money until the club could pay me back, and so on. I think newbies are vital to our survival and I'll do anything within reason to see the sport grow. Thumb cocking a DA pistol during the draw stroke isn't required to see the sport grow and it for darn sure isn't necessary for learning how to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Right on Ron! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Monster, Glocks don't rule Production globally because under IPSC rules you can't reduce the triger to 1.25lbs like you can in the US. And THAT is a "huge advantage". What I AM saying at this time is that Vince and others should realize that under US rules the Glock has the potential to provide a real, concrete advantage over other designs. Bingo-bango!! That's precisely why IPSC has a minimum trigger pull weight, my young Grasshopper. When the PD rules were being drafted in 1999, we were aware that without a minimum trigger pull, we'd be encouraging yet another "spend more money to make your trigger better" equipment race and/or effectively be creating a "Glock" division. In fact, we knew that if we didn't limit barrel length to 5", we'd actually be creating a "G34" division. This is why, globally, PD is far from being a "one-horse race". Guns such as CZ, Beretta, H&K and so on are highly prominent in PD division. Anyway, the changes are a "done-deal" in the USPSA, and I continue to wish them well. Maybe in 12 months time, their "no minimum trigger pull, longer barrel lengths, approval of the Springfield XD Series and allow thumb cocking after the start signal" will prove to be a magic formula. Time will tell. In any case, I'm delighted to see, once again, the BE Forums demonstrating that opposing views can be presented in a friendly, non-conforntational manner. Well done, chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Once again you're drawing sweeping conclusions about the dominance of one particular brand over another, based on a very narrow demographic base and set of circumstances. There were 81 competitors registered in PD at that particular match, not just 16. I think you can infer what the Top 16 shoots to what the rest of the Joe Average shoots. What the Top 16 shoots is what can win. Monkey see, monkey do. As far as a complete statistic for all the shooters, unfortunately Front Sight grouped L-10, Revolver (dominated by S&W) and Production together when they published the group statistics. For those who responded, the "Frame Manufacturer" statistics were: 63 STI 56 Glock 30 SV 23 Para-Ordnance 17 S&W 9 Kimber 8 Springfield 8 Beretta 8 Sig-Sauer 5 Colt 5 Les Baer 3 H&K 2 Caspian 2 CZ 1 Chip McCormick 1 Wilson 1 Bul If you strip the unlikely Production guns you have: 56 Glock (The vast majority most likely in Production.) 23 Para-Ordnance (A sizable portion most likely in L-10. I don't think the LDA is THAT popular.) 17 S&W (A sizable portion most likely in revolver) 8 Springfield (A sizable portion most likely in L-10) 8 Beretta 8 Sig-Sauer 3 H&K 2 CZ Because of the way the data was published we can't get a definitive answer from the data. But from the above I think it's a pretty safe bet that the dominance of the Glock that you see in the Top 16 carried over to the rest of the shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Vince are you racking the whole slide? I'm not familiar with Israeli IPSC. :-) See theres another reason why it's a good rule change... you can now practice the deadly Israeli technique of racking the slide in Production. We can now market Production to the immigrant Israeli's who want to practice their home-grown technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Who came up with the "thumb cocking is now allowed" rule anyway? Sheesh. It's like a Union arguing for better coffee cup lids for it's workers or something. Why was it an issue? I don't remember it even being on the list of proposed changes. I agree that it shouldn't be part of 'our' manual of arms as IPSC shooters. Am I worried about? Nah, "THEY" made the rules, we shoot by em. Lets shoot. Ron, you're killing me....that's funny stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Gordon, OK, now you're guessing about "who shot what" .............. I think we're done here folks. Hold that thought: I've just received an appeal to Arbitration to keep this thread open - the fee is the usual US$100 in small, unmarked bills "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" Michael Corleone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I agree with Ron and Brian on the thumb-cocking part. Precisely because it's going to be the inexperienced shooters who would want to do this, it is not a good idea to allow this. This will lead to unsafe situations IMO. And if you can't fire a well-placed DA shot, than you don't belong in PD (or RD for that matter) and you should go and play in any of the other divisions or learn to shoot. Apart from that, stable rules are a good thing. There will always be some kind of "race" between the rules and gun-manufacturers. Let it be for the little things, only adjust the rules if really, really necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Since when do we need to rewrite the rule book so people can circumvent learning how to shoot? That's just plain nuts. Shoot the first shot DA, call the shot, then make it up or take the miss. The wisest (and almost the only one) I read in this 7 pages discussion about PD rules. I dare to slightly change Ron's words in "...Learn how to shoot the first shot DA...", for all those newcomers (and not-so-new) that think a DA shot on a Pepper Popper @30+ metres needs thumb cocking the hammer. "Diligentia", do you remeber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 So they can't play if they don't want to learn how to shoot your way? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass (it comes naturally), but I can't grasp why you can't grasp that: a ) it's not that big of a deal and b ) it allows shooters that don't give a flying frog about "learning" to shoot properly some leeway when they want to come out and play. The safety issue is a big one, but don't go there. "We don't know that it will be a problem, but we ASSume, so we shouldn't allow it, so there!!!" If someone's a safety hazard, they'll get booted. Saying that because Joe Blow thumbcocks his gun before a stage, he's a safety hazard is ridiculous, particularly when you have ZERO evidence to back it up. Lemme reiterate: safety is paramount, so it will require some extra diligence while ROing the thumbcockers, just in case there is some additional danger. However, until that danger is verified to be a common one between all/most thumbcockers, blaming it on thumbcocking is flatout dumb. Anyway, here's the disclaimer: I have no stake either way. I don't see PD in my immediate, or even distant, future. I will admit to being HIGHLY anti-establishment. The gun list and potential holster list for USPSA PD rub me the wrong way. We won't get into IPSC rules. My point: it doesn't chap my ass either way, but I can't see why it's so important to DISallow it. If you don't like it, simply say you don't like it rather than attempting to justify why: humans ARE allowed to be irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Well, Gorilla, then allow me to be irrational I think the thumb cocking rule "feels" wrong. I think it wouldn't make a difference though. Thumb cocking costs time. And I've been shooting my DAO revolver for too long now to think that the actual weight and travel of the trigger weights up to me watching the sights while I pull it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Gorilla, So they can't play if they don't want to learn how to shoot your way?this is not true, since there are other divisions where you're not required to shoot the first shot DA. If they embrace a division, they shall comply with the rules, even if they don't feel like, or choose another division that suits better their feelings.I can't grasp why you can't grasp that: a ) it's not that big of a deal and b ) it allows shooters that don't give a flying frog about "learning" to shoot properly some leeway when they want to come out and play.I have to (politely) disagree on this: if you are not intending to learn how to properly shoot, but your main interest is come out and play, then:a ) you can play and shoot on a training ground as much as you like; but if you want to attend matches then your wish is no longer to have fun but to be competitive, and this requires you to "learn how to". b ) if you're not wishing to learn how to play this game, maybe you chose the wrong game for your satisfaction. Of course, I'm speaking for IPSC rules (that still require the PD guns to shoot the 1st shot in DA mode), the ones we apply here in Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 OK guys, We're into 7 pages now, we've beaten this horse to death, so it's definitely time to lock this thread. Thanks to everybody for their input .............. it's been surreal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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