rmills Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 The current issue of Front Sight has an article relating to the new Production Division Rules. It states that the "First shot must be fired double action" clause was being removed. I took this to mean that one can now cock a pistol such as a Beretta 92, put the safety on, and then fire the 1st shot single action. Gary Stevens (Area 5 Director) told me that's not the case. Can anyone explain why this wording was removed and what is the purpose of removing this language? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 use the search function here and you will find a heated thread on this (or two). The intent of the rule change is to allow thumb cocking, but not allow holstering/starting in cocked mode. We have not seen the wording of the rule yet, but I assume they will take care of implementing their intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I do not know about the new USPSA rules but the language of IPSC reads as follows: AppendixD4 - Production Division 17. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited. First shot must be double action. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to making the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed if the first double action shot attempted fails to discharge due to a malfunction, or in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. This covers it all I think. Bottomline - IPSC does not allow the hammer to be manually cocked before firing the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hi Kees Welcome to the Forum! You will find it very informative and your input will be valuable in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hi Kees, Finally you're here ! Welcome aboard ! Kees, the article in FSM (I read it today) is about USPSA, not IPSC. So your comments are right for IPSC, but the question from Ronald was about USPSA rules ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hello Kees, you finally found your way to the only serious IPSC resource on the internet (except ipsc.nl, of course)!. You are right but besides the point. rmills lives in the US, and USPSA has just annouced their intent to change this rule to allowing thumb-cocking. We do not have the wording in just yet, but this is going to be another deviation from IPSC rules. And a quiz just for you: Who took the photo that you see when you click on my name? --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Was it kees who took that photo ? I hope you were not kneeling for him, we sure never do ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 what, you don't kneel in front of your ROs? We all do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hey everyone: Let's stay on the topic. Is this rule change (USPSA) for the purpose of allowing thumbcocking? Lookout for a lot of AD's on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 on topic? You're joking, huh? Why would you see more ADs with thumbcocking than with trigger cocking???? I find the rule change quite unnecessary, but I do not think *more ADs* is a good argument against it... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hey everyone:Let's stay on the topic. Is this rule change (USPSA) for the purpose of allowing thumbcocking? Lookout for a lot of AD's on this one! Why? I don't get that comment. You get AD's from having your finger on the trigger when you shouldn't, not your thumb on the hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I think what we'll see is more new shooters. A lot of people just can't shoot that first DA shot worth a damn. Yes, they should learn, just like they should have brought a holster and half a dozen mags and read the rulebook, but still this will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 I could see someone drawing thier pistol, starting to extend it towards the target with their finger on the trigger at that point, cocking the hammer, when the hammer is almost fully cocked their thumb slips off causing the firearm to shift a bit in their hand allowing the finger to nudge the trigger. Am I overthinking this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Ok, I like the new rule, but I'm speaking as a beginner who can't shoot double-action well enough yet. Why not allow it? It will me down a little (I can see how people culd get fast at it though), but it makes an easier trigger pull closer to the Glocks right? If the IPSC rule of 5# first shot was there, I'd take it back out. I'd only use it now, for the first shot on those long 25+ poppers or plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I think the best reason to allow the shooter to cock the weapon "after" the start signal is that our sport is freestyle. After the start signal it is up to you to solve the problem. If cocking the weapon is the best way to make a hard or distant (one in the same for me) shot then that particular shooter is free to make that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Hi Gary, After the start signal it is up to you to solve the problem. Do you also plan to allow competitors in Revolver Standard Division to shoot to capacity (e.g. 8 rounds) without penalty after the start signal? Sorry, I couldn't resist - the Devil made me do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I will if you will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Gary, Naaaah. I was just trying to point out that we (both IPSC & USPSA), do indeed dictate what you can (and cannot), do after the start signal, and I don't just mean in respect of safety. IPSC penalises you for cocking your hammer in PD and for firing more than 6 rounds before a reload in RSD, but I guess you guys are focussing only on PD. Anyway, as you know, the Divisions were never "on the table" during the last 12 months of our rules work, so I'm merely an observer in that respect. My primary interest is seeing what the USPSA eventually does in respect to the "body" of the rules (i.e. Chapters 1-12). Hope you have a great 2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 They say a trip of a thousand miles begins with one step. Production today, revolver tomorrow. Great New Year to you also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Sorry but I see this as weakening the division rules. Production was working and not broken. Because a few shooters didn't like the DA only on the 1st shot, we are going to change the rules to accomodate them. I know that everyone doesn't want to hear this, BUT, whether you like it or not, IDPA continues to grow due to the stable, non-changing rules. SSP Division will not be changed to accomodate anyone, period. If you want to shoot SA/DA, shoot in ESP or CDP Division (yes, Glock 21's Sig's, and other .45ACP pistols can shoot in CDP Division). Contrary to popular belief, pistols other than Wison .45's do compete and win in that division. OOOPPPPS! I strayed from the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Roy you are certainly entitled to your opinion and who knows you might be right. That having been said though, there are many who seem to be able to find a cloud in every silver lining. I think this change is worthy, and does not turn Production on it's head. We are not allowing S/A cocked and locked like many were predicting, and we are not bending over and grabbing our ankels for any particular group of shooters or sponsors. We are tying to do what we think is best for the sport. Those that disagree with those decisions always have options available to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Gary: You are right. There are other options. USPSA continues on it's evolutional path in becoming an elitist organization. It has now become the next "Bullseye". While intentionally ignoring the successes of other organizations and analyzing what creates that success, USPSA continues to attempt to be the big fish in it's very small pond. It's evident all around, monthly club matches with stages requiring 25 to 35 rounds from one position, clubs not recognizing independent divisions such as Production and Limited 10, the "I've got my Open Gun and Hi-Caps so who cares about those who start shooting Open today" crowd, and the constant rule changes. When I stated several months ago the intentions of myself and others in our area to not renew our USPSA memberships, you stated that we should hang around and see what's was going to happen. Well, we did. What we see happening is nothing. We also have watched a steady decline in attendance at all local USPSA club matches and a steady growth in attendance at local IDPA matches, especially at the club I belong to where the IDPA match attendance continues to grow while the USPSA attendance continues to drop. Yes, we will take advantage of the "other options" available to us and shoot IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Gary:You are right. There are other options. USPSA continues on it's evolutional path in becoming an elitist organization. It has now become the next "Bullseye". While intentionally ignoring the successes of other organizations and analyzing what creates that success, USPSA continues to attempt to be the big fish in it's very small pond. It's evident all around, monthly club matches with stages requiring 25 to 35 rounds from one position, clubs not recognizing independent divisions such as Production and Limited 10, the "I've got my Open Gun and Hi-Caps so who cares about those who start shooting Open today" crowd, and the constant rule changes. When I stated several months ago the intentions of myself and others in our area to not renew our USPSA memberships, you stated that we should hang around and see what's was going to happen. Well, we did. What we see happening is nothing. We also have watched a steady decline in attendance at all local USPSA club matches and a steady growth in attendance at local IDPA matches, especially at the club I belong to where the IDPA match attendance continues to grow while the USPSA attendance continues to drop. Yes, we will take advantage of the "other options" available to us and shoot IDPA. Well I for one welcome the changes. As an organization, USPSA should change its rules to clarify any gray areas, to better adhere to its goals and to better serve its members. As far as I am reading and comprehending, the changes and clarifications were: Clarifications: L-10, Production Mag Capacity - Now allows you to load 11 in the first mag and charge off of that magazine. Which would leave you with 10+1. The old language required you to ONLY load 10, charge off a magazine and either 1) switch to another full 10-round magazine or 2) take out the magazine, top-it-off and replace it all to get to 10+1. - Previously, load 11 in a magazine and charging would put you out of Limited-10 and Production and into Open. Apparently this happened to Sharon Z in a Nationals and she was put into Open. Holster Position in Production - Adds a graphic representation of the forward limits in positioning holsters and mags. Cocking specifically allowed for first shot in Production - IIRC Amidon had ruled on this earlier. Changes: Allowable Production Gun - Deletes the box requirement - Establishes a listing requirement of legal production guns. Production Barrel Length - Limits length to 5.5" autos & 8.5" for revolver - Specifically allows replacement barrels as long as it adheres to the new barrel length limit and is the "same as original factory standard." New Division: Tactical Rifle - Rifle: "standard rifle with no more than one optical/electronic sight." Scoring: "Tactical Aggregate" Multiple re-entries in appproved (Level 1) matches Revolver Major I applaud the changes/clarifications made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Well Roy, I am sorry to see you go. I think the next couple of years are going to be exciting times in USPSA. Of course USPSA is a commodity and people are and have been free to exercise their freedom to choose. I think those who choose to stay and play will be pleased. The President and members of the BOD are dedicated to try to be responsive to the members while producing a quality product. If we fall short in an area, we will attempt to do better the next time. While we can strive for perfection, we very seldom achieve it. Perhaps you will have more fun at the IDPA matches, I hope you do. Of course you might find that they are also subject to the same issues we have in USPSA, only without elected representation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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