c-more dot size

[open67]

What size dot is primarily used in the c-more for ipsc; 6 or the 8, and can you even tell much of a difference.

[yoshidaex]

its hard to tell between a 6 and a 8.

[XD Niner]

I have both and really can't tell any difference. I use the 8 MOA as a rule.

[G-ManBart]

What size dot is primarily used in the c-more for ipsc; 6 or the 8, and can you even tell much of a difference.

Search is your friend ...just a couple down from the top in the Open gun section:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102496&view=findpost&p=1167294

I'm running 12moa on my USPSA guns and I just put 16s in my steel guns. I ran about 1,000 rounds of .22 on steel with them over the weekend and I'm liking the bigger dot. I also shot groups back to 35yds and had no problems with the bigger dot. R,

[Pat Miles]

I'm using a 12 moa dot in my open guns. Old eyes!

Cya,

Pat

[Sean Gaines]

4 here, aim small miss small

[TonyT]

I use the 12 minute dot. The larger dot elps me get on target a bit faster.

[Chris Keen]

4 here, aim small miss small

I couldn't agree more. I also use a 4. I think anything over a 8 is crazy big, and will hurt you when shooting partial targets at long distance.

[G-ManBart]

4 here, aim small miss small

I couldn't agree more. I also use a 4. I think anything over a 8 is crazy big, and will hurt you when shooting partial targets at long distance.

I haven't found a 12 to be a problem at all on partials/long distance etc. I shot the '08 Nationals with a 12moa dot and it worked perfectly on the 40yd standards and on the stage with the car and partial targets on both sides (I was one of the few who seemed not to have any Mikes on that one on my squad).

Just going off the pure math, a 12moa dot is only covering 3" at 25yds, so it's barely wider than the upper A-zone, if any at all (haven't measured one, but it's in that ballpark). I don't even find it's an issue at 50yds....stick the dot in the A and it might overlap a little, but not much.

I'm sure a big part of it is just getting used to it and I've been running a 12 for a while now. R,

[Sean Gaines]

4 here, aim small miss small

I couldn't agree more. I also use a 4. I think anything over a 8 is crazy big, and will hurt you when shooting partial targets at long distance.

I haven't found a 12 to be a problem at all on partials/long distance etc. I shot the '08 Nationals with a 12moa dot and it worked perfectly on the 40yd standards and on the stage with the car and partial targets on both sides (I was one of the few who seemed not to have any Mikes on that one on my squad).

Just going off the pure math, a 12moa dot is only covering 3" at 25yds, so it's barely wider than the upper A-zone, if any at all (haven't measured one, but it's in that ballpark). I don't even find it's an issue at 50yds....stick the dot in the A and it might overlap a little, but not much.

I'm sure a big part of it is just getting used to it and I've been running a 12 for a while now. R,

if the 12 is only covering 3" at 25 the 4moa is only covering 1" at 25, I like that better, I know its all personal preference. comming from iron sights to open, to see a dot over 6, just looks gigantic, I have seen scopes with eraser head sized dots, and I am like, where is the bullet going to impact in that red circle. especialy in open when you bring the dot to the target, and more target focused jmho

Sean

[G-ManBart]

if the 12 is only covering 3" at 25 the 4moa is only covering 1" at 25, I like that better, I know its all personal preference. comming from iron sights to open, to see a dot over 6, just looks gigantic, I have seen scopes with eraser head sized dots, and I am like, where is the bullet going to impact in that red circle. especialy in open when you bring the dot to the target, and more target focused jmho

Sean

That's where I don't buy it. The front sight on most folks iron-sighted guns are WAY larger than a dot over 6. I have .100" wide on my Lim, SS and Production guns and that covers a lot more than 1" at 25yds and probably more than 3"

[G-ManBart]

Never one to shy away from ruining my own good theory, I put this one about dot size to the test just now. I have a large garage separate from my house and it's long enough that I can put a target on one wall and back off 10yds with a bit of room to spare. I have a standard IPSC Metric target on the far wall and I double checked both the distance to it, and the width of the A-zones. The lower A-zone is a touch over 6" wide and the upper A-zone is a touch over 4" wide. I put a thumb tack in the center of the upper A for reference (touching the tip of the "A").

With an Open gun that has a 12moa dot, it takes up less than one third of the width of the upper A. Since 12moa is roughly 12" at 100yds, it's covering 1.2" at 10yds. Clearly, that's not going to keep you from making an accurate shot at any distance we normally shoot.

I then took a Limited gun that has a .090" (mistakenly said above that it was .100") wide front sight and did the same comparison. I measured the blade and it's .089" at it's widest point. At that same 10yds, the front sight visually touched the side of the thumb tack in the center of the upper A...so I'd call it 2" of coverage (since the box is slightly over 4" wide).

The narrowest front sight blade we normally see covers way more target than the second largest dot we normally see. So much for the theory about big dots preventing accurate shooting

Maybe there really is a reason why it's so much easier to make fast, accurate hits on small targets with a red dot after all

Edited March 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[boz1911]

I used to use a 12moa dot exclusively with no issues. Last year I had lens replacement surgery which created a halo or ghost effect making the dot shape into a figure 8. I switched to a 8moa dot to minimize the halo effect and it did help. Recently I had surgery to correct the astigmatism in my right eye and help with the halo and man did it work. The 8moa dot now looks like a laser beam. Kinda makes wish I hadn't got rid of the 12......

[Chris Keen]

Stick with the 8 moa dot Brian. That's the same word I use to describe my front sight on my LTD guns ...... laser. If it works ..... don't fix it.

[G-ManBart]

Stick with the 8 moa dot Brian. That's the same word I use to describe my front sight on my LTD guns ...... laser. If it works ..... don't fix it.

What size front sight are you using?

To pair up reasonably close to an 8moa dot, a front sight would have to be something like .050" or so.

Edited March 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Chris Keen]

I use a 0.90" front sight on my Limited guns. If I could get a smaller front sight that wouldn't break I would be all over it. I think a 0.50 would be nice. I'm actually here shooting a Bianchi match right now and after just shooting the barricade event at 35 yards I realize a 0.90 is really big.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Chris Keen

[G-ManBart]

I use a 0.90" front sight on my Limited guns. If I could get a smaller front sight that wouldn't break I would be all over it. I think a 0.50 would be nice. I'm actually here shooting a Bianchi march right now and after just shooting the barricade event at 35 yards I realize a 0.90 is really big.

My mental math was a bit off. Just running through it quickly, it looks like an 8moa dot would equal a .040" wide front sight, or a little less and a 6moa dot would be a .030" wide front sight (again, or a touch less).

For USPSA matches I haven't seen where a .090" wide front blade was even close to being too wide, and the majority of folks seem to think that size is way too small. I totally don't get the disconnect why some of those same folks think an 8 or 12 moa dot is too big, when visually, it takes up less space than even the smallest front blade we normally see

Edited March 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[lugnut]

Are you guys referring to .090" front sight?? A .900" front sight would be wider than the slide!

[Xfactor]

Are you guys referring to .090" front sight?? A .900" front sight would be wider than the slide!

Edited March 28, 2010 by Xfactor

[Xfactor]

...

Edited March 27, 2010 by Xfactor

[JThompson]

Everyone sees a bit differently and depending on how good your eyes are a smaller of larger dot may be for you. As I get older, my eyes have a harder time picking up the smaller dot. I don't know whether it's the floaters I have in my eye or the fact that my eyes are getting slower to focus of what, but I find that a larger dot is helpful, both for my slower eyes and esp dealing with a low sun. A glare shield is a must have as well.

I see the whole dot size issue as like finding a gun that fits your hand. No two hands are the same. There may be a larger group that gravitate toward a certain dot size, but I will never run a piece of equipment without gleaning the empirical data myself.

I suggest you tap some friends or the Enos shooting community and try out all the sizes and see what you think... also, remember that the process they have for making the dot size is less than stellar for SPC. I've had 6-8 moa that are the same size... a I've also had 12s that looked like 8s and 8s that look like 12.

Edited March 27, 2010 by JThompson

[G-ManBart]

Are you guys referring to .090" front sight?? A .900" front sight would be wider than the slide!

Yeah, I had the actual measurement (.089") correct, but the others were typos...fixed them. Thx,

[G-ManBart]

Everyone sees a bit differently and depending on how good your eyes are a smaller of larger dot may be for you. As I get older, my eyes have a harder time picking up the smaller dot. I don't know whether it's the floaters I have in my eye or the fact that my eyes are getting slower to focus of what, but I find that a larger dot is helpful, both for my slower eyes and esp dealing with a low sun. A glare shield is a must have as well.

I see the whole dot size issue as like finding a gun that fits you hand. No two hands are the same. There may be a larger group that gravitate toward a certain dot size, but I will never run a piece of equipment without gleaning the empirical data myself.

I suggest you tap some friends or the Enos shooting community and try out all the sizes and see what you think... also, remember that the process they have for making the dot size is less than stellar for SPC. I've had 6-8 moa that are the same size... a I've also had 12s that looked like 8s and 8s that look like 12.

I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything you've said, or what people's preferences are, but it does seem confusing. I like a .090" front sight on my iron-sighted guns....I can live with .100", but wider than that and it really annoys me. Most folks aren't running a .090" front sight...so I'm in the minority. On my Open guns I'm thrilled with the 12moa and just put 16s on my steel guns...and like the way those work enough that I'm considering trying them in my regular guns. Most folks are running 6 or 8, so again, I'm in the minority. If I like the smallest normal front sight width, why would I like the widest two dot sizes? The only thing I can think is that based on the actual visual size, I like to see the same thing between the two guns, or about the same amount of target covered regardless of whether it's a dot, or a blade.

That makes me wonder about sight/target focus and whether a lot of people that shoot both Open and other divisions aren't really looking AT the dot, rather than at the target. It also makes me wonder if a lot of folks aren't really looking at the target when they should be looking at the front sight. If you're looking at the target, a wide front sight shouldn't bother you as much and will actually give you a better chance of hitting something. If you're looking at the dot, a small dot might let you better frame it in the background of the target when it should really be the other way around.

It simply doesn't add up when I put the two side-by-side (I also compared a scope with a 4moa dot when I was doing this). To read people say that a "large" dot covers up too much, when it actually covers up less than a normal front sight tells me something isn't right. :blink:

[JThompson]

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here Bart. Front sight and target focus are two other animals. What may be acceptable for one my not be for the other... With a dot, really nothing is covered as your weak side eye is focused on the same plane and that is the target. The reverse is true for a iron sight gun.

I think many people like the smaller dot because if they see the dot on a piece of steel they get the hit. This is NOT always true with a larger dot. When you're turning and burning you tend to see red on white and fire. That will NOT work if you have less than half that dot on the target, but to the mind you see 2-3 inches of dot on the popper. This is why guys tend to miss steel... they see red on whte, but it just isn't close enough to the middle. That very thing happened to me last Thurs..

JT

Edited March 28, 2010 by JThompson

[Neomet]

Not sure, but this may play into what you are talking about Bart. Because of vision issues I normally shoot open with one eye. (I keep trying with 2 but that is a different, ugly story.) When I shoot with one eye a big dot is too much. For me all I can see is the dot. I am certain I am looking more at the dot then. If I go to a smaller dot this issue goes away. I see the target and the dot does not dominate the image I see. This is not an issue when I shoot with both eyes open and a target focus.

Not sure what that all means, but it seemed somehow relevant.