rgkeller Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 Your observations not withstanding..... ROs are not expected to make a DQ call unless they are certain that the violation occured. The reason for that is that the RO's call is taken as fact and the shooter cannot prove the infraction did not occur because there is no residual evidence after the event. The fact that is finger is not seen as "out" by the RO does not particularly mean that it is "in". You call what you see, not what you suspect or deduce. Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 Your observations not withstanding..... ROs are not expected to make a DQ call unless they are certain that the violation occured. The reason for that is that the RO's call is taken as fact and the shooter cannot prove the infraction did not occur because there is no residual evidence after the event. The fact that is finger is not seen as "out" by the RO does not particularly mean that it is "in". You call what you see, not what you suspect or deduce. If you have a good view of the trigger guard and the trigger finger, and you can't see the end of it, just where might it be hiding? If it's not clearly out, there's only one place for it to be. Again, I don't think I'd believe someone who's done a lot of RO duties if they said they've never thought that they should have DQ'd a shooter for their trigger finger, but just didn't act fast enough. Reality is that the vast majority of competitors make it very clear where their trigger finger is during things like reloads. The small handful that don't make it clearly obvious are being less safe, because you can't have your finger "that" close to being in the TG, and have any margin for error, which is the reason for the rule in the first place....heck, hit the side of the trigger and it can go off even without a finger being technically "in" the TG. Reality is that those folks making it less than obvious are taking a risk that they'll be DQ'd because they're cutting it very close and not every RO will have the same amount of leniency....they need to know that. If they don't want to make the effort to fix it, a deserved DQ probably would. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 If you have a good view of the trigger guard and the trigger finger, and you can't see the end of it, just where might it be hiding? If it's not clearly out, there's only one place for it to be. If I can't see it, I have no idea where it might be hiding. Where ever it is, it's a very good hiding place 'cause I don't see it in the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) This discussion is precisely why people need to learn positive and not negative placement when it comes to trigger finger Put it ON something else (slide, ejection port, side of frame, etc), not OFF of the trigger. Edited March 21, 2010 by spankaveli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) If you have a good view of the trigger guard and the trigger finger, and you can't see the end of it, just where might it be hiding? If it's not clearly out, there's only one place for it to be. If I can't see it, I have no idea where it might be hiding. Where ever it is, it's a very good hiding place 'cause I don't see it in the trigger guard. You're right, we really should resort to the lowest common denominator and accept that it maybe sorta, could be kinda safe and hope it all works out okay. It's funny, but I see a lot of talk about some of this, but nobody will answer or address the acid test question. Have you (not just you George) ever finished running a shooter knowing that you should have DQ'd them for their trigger finger? I'll admit it, I have...didn't like it at the time, and I don't like it now, but I'll fess up. Let's see who else feels like being objective If you admit that you have, then there's an obvious disconnect and it points to exactly one thing...with a "pointer" finger maybe Edited March 21, 2010 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 This discussion is precisely why people need to learn positive and not negative placement when it comes to trigger finger Put it ON something else (slide, ejection port, side of frame, etc), not OFF of the trigger. Can I get an AMEN brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 (edited) Let's say you call a finger in triggerguard DQ at a Major match. The RM gets called to the stage, and he asks you what happened. Will you say that you saw the finger in, or that you think the finger was in? It makes a huge difference. There is a standard for applying a DQ. The RO must be sure. It's spelled out very clearly when you take the the class. What you think happened is not good enough. You must be sure. Does this mean that a "guilty" competitor will occasionally go "free"? It does. That's the system we have, and it is not perfect. Edited March 21, 2010 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's in there. You should never send someone home because you "thought" it was in there, you must KNOW it is, and the only way to know is to see it. I am all about the safety, but in this case, you just instructed a guy to load a gun, then draw it and run around blasting targets with it while navigating a CoF with all sorts of props, fault lines, barriers, doors, ports, the list goes on. If you want everything to be 100% presumably safe, matches would be nothing but stand and shoot standards drills. Let the guy do his thing, if you cannot see his finger tell him he is about to get DQ'd if he doesn't show it to you by giving the "finger" warning. It's in the jest of safety and that's why it's in the rule book. If it wasn't what the founders/BoD wanted you to do it wouldn't be in the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Post Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 It's funny, but I see a lot of talk about some of this, but nobody will answer or address the acid test question. Have you (not just you George) ever finished running a shooter knowing that you should have DQ'd them for their trigger finger? There was a time I was running a shooter and he made a mag change and had his finger so far through the trigger guard I could see his first knuckle. He shot the last three targets. We did the whole "if you are finished...." Then I said "STOP" I then issued the DQ. So it's not too late to issue a DQ at the end of the course of fire. On the other hand, at one of the local steel matches I saw so many fingers on triggers during jams, reloads and unloading, I stopped shooting it for a while. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 It's funny, but I see a lot of talk about some of this, but nobody will answer or address the acid test question. Have you (not just you George) ever finished running a shooter knowing that you should have DQ'd them for their trigger finger? I'll admit it, I have...didn't like it at the time, and I don't like it now, but I'll fess up. Let's see who else feels like being objective If you admit that you have, then there's an obvious disconnect and it points to exactly one thing...with a "pointer" finger maybe The fact that we are human (at least most of us anyway) and capable of error does not prove your point. We have all, I'm fairly confident, made mistakes when running shooters. I have. You have. "So what?" says I. Our collective failings do not justify DQing someone on anything less than distinct evidence. You can't make up for past failure by applying a tighter standard which lacks specific visual proof. Somehow, I don't think our two individual viewpoints have much chance of colliding. Their courses are too far apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 This discussion is precisely why people need to learn positive and not negative placement when it comes to trigger finger Put it ON something else (slide, ejection port, side of frame, etc), not OFF of the trigger. Can I get an AMEN brother! No you can't. While I'll agree that's prudent, it's not required by the rulebook, and it's absence isn't enough to issue a DQ.... Like George Post, I've dq'd one or maybe two shooters at the end of a stage --- some moments later than the point in time where I'd have ideally called "Stop." I've also dq'd a couple of people for having a finger in a trigger guard when it shouldn't have been there --- but I can't remember letting any slide where I've been sure of what I saw. Closest I came to that was running a shooter on a stage and wondering; then running that same shooter on the next stage -- the classifier. I ran that shooter from the left, and saw a finger clearly in the trigger guard during the reload. I called it. He may have done it before; he may not --- I'm only certain about the classifier.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 When I RO, I will sometimes see what MIGHT be a trigger violation. It is not always easy to determine with the shooter moving the gun as they go around obstacles or are in the process of reloading. If I suspect a possible violation I will talk to the shooter after the CoF is completed. New shooters are told to practice their movement skills. Get into the habit of pulling the finger out of the guard even if the movement is nothing more than transitioning from one array to the next while shooting from a box. When moving between arrays put a little more effort into keeping the finger well outside of the trigger guard because hands reflexively tighten when we slip or fall. It is easier to build good habits than break bad habits. More experienced shooters are just given a general warning that their finger was iffy. I will then keep a closer eye on their trigger finger during CoF's. I have had some admit that they might have been close, and they make a conscious effort to keep their finger visibly outside of the trigger during the rest of the match. I'll be honest, I could not tell you where my trigger finger is with 100% certainty while moving. It should be solidly Viagra stiff right above the trigger guard, BUT it is an ingrained position that I do not even think about as I move or reload. I figure it must be in the right position because I have never been called for a trigger violation or even warned about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 This discussion is precisely why people need to learn positive and not negative placement when it comes to trigger finger Put it ON something else (slide, ejection port, side of frame, etc), not OFF of the trigger. Can I get an AMEN brother! No you can't. While I'll agree that's prudent, it's not required by the rulebook, and it's absence isn't enough to issue a DQ.... Like George Post, I've dq'd one or maybe two shooters at the end of a stage --- some moments later than the point in time where I'd have ideally called "Stop." I've also dq'd a couple of people for having a finger in a trigger guard when it shouldn't have been there --- but I can't remember letting any slide where I've been sure of what I saw. Closest I came to that was running a shooter on a stage and wondering; then running that same shooter on the next stage -- the classifier. I ran that shooter from the left, and saw a finger clearly in the trigger guard during the reload. I called it. He may have done it before; he may not --- I'm only certain about the classifier.... No doubt we are in agreement. My point is that if your finger is trained to go somewhere, it won't be floating around near or in the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Some of these newer (after all, i'm still new i think) people have sympathy movements of their finger (it balls up as they death grip the thing doing a reload), and you can't tell where their finger tip is Which almost always means it's in the trigger guard. If you can't see the tip of the finger, why is that?....cause it's tucked in there where you can't see it. That's what happens when someone balls up their hand, the fingers curl and we know where the trigger finger is when it's curled. Safety is safety and DQ's do teach. We have the warning capability that does allow us the capacity to help someone who may not know or haven't had the experience, gain some of it rather than just showing up shooting 2 rounds, get DQ'd and going home. That would be a lot better, in the long run, than having them repeatedly get too close to the line and then go over it when something unusual happens...then they say "that's never happened before"...yeah, because nobody stopped you and forced you to learn the right way from the start. We can't DQ someone because they are close to breaking a safety rule - they must break it. fingers and 180* violations are judgement calls...it's not really a black and white thing. What looks close to the 180* to me might be just over to the RO...he/she gets final say on that...even if they're "wrong" and the shooter didn't really break the 180*. This is why we don't allow things like video evidence. If the RO thinks, not knows (because that really isn't possible in real time), you broke a safety rule, they're supposed to call it. I'll have to agree to disagree. I've witnessed shooters that bend their fingers over without coming close the guard. It's a matter of how far they open their hand and first joint from the weapon. I warned an older gentleman once about his finger, and the watched him from a further out location during a stand and blaze speed shoot - during the reload, I saw he clearly had 1/2" clearance between the trigger area and his finger. Do I like what he does, no, but it's not a violation. I can't assume because his second joint is bent in that his finger is in the guard. Judgment calls they are - but they have to be certain - in my judgment, to call the safety violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I have no problem issuing a "finger" warning especially to new shooters. In severe cases that will be followed by a little discussion afterwards. RO's need to use the "Viagra" method if they plan to DQ someone. In my case the tip of my trigger finger was severed as a kid and curves down at the end which gives the RO a different look than they see with most shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt2ace Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 IF you are positive of the violation......"STOP"....DQ! If you are unsure, but suspect a violation......talk to the shooter after the stage is completed, tell them what you think you saw and warn them to be careful/aware. Helping shooters who may be developing unsafe habits should only happen during practice or after the stage is completed. I had one experience a couple of year ago where a new shooter got a post-stage warning from me because I thought he had his finger in the trigger guard during a reload (he claimed not). He also came close to a 180 on that stage which I also warned him about. Next stage. he reloads with finger in trigger guard (this time I was positive) AND turns a 180 at the sametime....DQ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 This discussion is precisely why people need to learn positive and not negative placement when it comes to trigger finger Put it ON something else (slide, ejection port, side of frame, etc), not OFF of the trigger. Can I get an AMEN brother! So what happens when you don't see the trigger finger where you think it should be and you end up DQ'ing a lefty only later to realize lefties use their trigger finger to hit the mag button?? Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 This discussion is precisely why people need to learn positive and not negative placement when it comes to trigger finger Put it ON something else (slide, ejection port, side of frame, etc), not OFF of the trigger. Can I get an AMEN brother! No you can't. While I'll agree that's prudent, it's not required by the rulebook, and it's absence isn't enough to issue a DQ.... I never said that it was required, I'm saying I agree that this is a smart, safe, intelligent way to train yourself, and it just happens to make the RO's job easier....win-win. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted March 21, 2010 Author Share Posted March 21, 2010 This has been a lively discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Again, I'm not talking about a situation where you (the RO) don't have a clear view (maybe just a bad angle) of the TG/finger. If you have a clear view, and can can see the TG, but can't see the tip of the finger, there is only one place that finger can be...in the TG. The TG itself is blocking your view of it. I'm only talking about that one scenario. If you (as the RO) think you can have a good angle on the TG/finger and not see the end of the finger, but have it really be outside the TG, I think you're kidding yourself and just don't want to be the bad guy. Take it to a logical next step. Can an RO ever really tell if he/she is on the shooter's strong hand side? Well, uhm, maybe, no, not so much. To have the PROOF that everyone here is talking about, you'd have to be on the support side and see the trigger finger poking in from the other side. By shear geometry, the shooter's fingers/hand block some view of the tip of the trigger finger when seen from the strong side. For whatever reason, it's a small percentage of shooters that don't make their finger obvious during things like reloads and I've seen over the years that they're almost always the few that have ADs when picking up guns, doing reloads etc....why? Because they've been allowed to be unsafe for years and it finally caught up with them. All that time their fingers were really just barely in the TG or brushing up on the side of the trigger and they never got called on it. They habitually nodded and said "okay" when they were warned or had "finger" yelled at them during a COF....but it never made them change their bad, unsafe, habits. I normally know who those folks are and make sure I'm well away from them when they're shooting. Ever see anybody like that at your club? Yep, bet you have too....probably a lesson in that. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted March 21, 2010 Author Share Posted March 21, 2010 It sounds as if you suggest there are 2 types: Those who know better, and the uneducable walking hazards who are a waste of effort, and must be DQ'd from the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Soley as a reminder, which many of you probably know, but the standard says nothing about "finger on the trigger during ..." Rather, the applicable rules state: 10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a malfunction [...] 10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. [...] 10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement [...] I think one can see the theme here ... As George (and a couple of others) have pointed out: Outside - Good; Inside - Bad, DQ; Really Unsure - Maybe the RO should consider issuing a warning under 8.6.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Finger is a legitimate safety call if you're not sure that you see a violation. If you see a violation, the correct command is "stop," followed by (well, you know what comes next). If your not sure that you see a violation, there is zero reason to say anything to the shooter during the course of fire. Period. I don't agree that it's that black and white..... Don't know if it's ever that black and white either. But this weekend I had a shooter (not a new shooter either)who kept his finger out of the trigger guard but liked to keep it bent somehow. At first glance it really looked like the finger was in and I almost reacted until I noticed it was actually clear of the guard. As he continued the stage he did it every time he reloaded. When he finished I mentioned to him that he needs to work on straightening the finger to make it more obvious. He pretty much said it happens all the time. My thought was, "then train yourself to stop doing it". I think if he fell on his gun side his finger could end up on the trigger pretty easy. This would seem to be a safety issue but not one that falls under the finger rule. So like I said, not always black and white I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 There is no rule against having your finger almost in the triggerguard, just as there is no rule against almost breaking the 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 There is no rule against having your finger almost in the triggerguard, just as there is no rule against almost breaking the 180. Poor comparison. Breaking the 180 doesn't increase the chances of an AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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