Swinging plate rack - Polish Plate Rack

[Steve J]

Robert, they are only devices to hold USPSA legal plates. As long as the plates only fall when hit and don't create range failures, moving steel targets like this create the perfect challenge. Moving targets are the most practical of targets, and that's a good thing in a practical shooting sport where precious little of its practical origins remain.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Steve J

[Pat Miles]

I have seen them twice at big matches now.

I was very lucky and cleared it acceptably fast so I am not whining about myself but I HATE those kind of props. I saw even excellent shooters have a bad time with them because the sometimes very rapid swing is unpredictable. There is a sliding weight in back that makes it even screwier.

And it depends on where on the plate your bullet hits. And there were quite a few range failures due to that prop that really backed up the squads.

And it does not behave the same with all PF either. I saw excellent center hits on plates from those shooting minor and the plate might or might not come off or worse goes partially askew. And how in the heck do you calibrate them? Or add some wind and you are also screwed.

I think it is a very bad prop because

1) It violates the prinicipal of USPSA that the course should present the same challenge for every shooter. If a prop is unpredicatable, is it the same challenge for every shooter?

2) You can have a great match and get totally reamed by a bad behavior (thru no predictable fault of your own) by one prop.

3) There are plenty of other ways to test accuracy or moving targets.

Now I see folks are putting hard cover in front of part of rotation making it even worse.

To me it's just one of those "gotcha" props that dont belong in USPSA.

Actually I'm surprised they are even considered legal as rules (4.3.4) says metal targets must be as described in Appendix B5 and those in B5 are nothing like the attachments on Texas Stars or Polish Plate racks

We have a young Master class shooter here in Albuquerque who can clean a PPR so fast that the end weights do not drop off. The beam stays horizontal. Easy reset!

Adios,

Pat

[el pres]

Does anyone know how the plates mount on Farley's PPR? Is it a paddle base and single spring like on MGM's "whirly gig" or double tits and spring loaded lever like the Texas Star?

Like the MGM...

They work great, 9mm etc.. Being from the home club of the PPR we have shot them extensivly and the only problems I have seen have been with the improper set up, or reset of the thing. When resetting people forget to take the lock pin out or they fail to balance it correctly and it goes off by itself, otherwise it works. I have not seen any calibration issues with them yet. It can be calibrated by locking the bar horizontily with the intergrated lock which turns it into a two story platerack..

[Steve J]

Thanks P.Pres.

[LPatterson]

They work great, 9mm etc.. Being from the home club of the PPR we have shot them extensivly and the only problems I have seen have been with the improper set up, or reset of the thing. When resetting people forget to take the lock pin out or they fail to balance it correctly and it goes off by itself, otherwise it works. I have not seen any calibration issues with them yet. It can be calibrated by locking the bar horizontily with the intergrated lock which turns it into a two story platerack..

Improper reset by our squad resulted in the RO's taking over the weight calibration & lock pin removal. I thought it was a great idea to give someone else the responsibility. However not looking forward to a partially visible PPR especially shooting a Revo.

[Aloha Robert]

Robert, they are only devices to hold USPSA legal plates. As long as the plates only fall when hit and don't create range failures, moving steel targets like this create the perfect challenge. Moving targets are the most practical of targets, and that's a good thing in a practical shooting sport where precious little of its practical origins remain.

There absolutely nothing remotely practical about a moving unpredicatable plate. Ever seen anything remotely resembling a moving plate shoot back at you? Metal targets were put in USPSA to make sure folks kept their power factor legit and to test accuracy, not to be gotchas. And the point is they DO create range failures that are hard to judge.

I would love to hear from someone in the USPSA rules hierarchy comment on their legality. Rules seem prety clear they are not mentioned as legal so someone must have made a dispensation about it. It is precisely the attachment that is not mentioned in the rules as legal and the attachment is one of the unreliable failure points.

The attachment is via a spring. And we all know how springs have problems with use, corrosion, setting, centrifugal force, sagging, harmonics, etc. etc. Metal targets were not peviously thought to be a test of spring reliability

Here is another question. How does the RO tell on a moving target decide in real time whether a plate has been hit or not other than falling off?

So if you have partial or edge hit, no way to detect range failure until stage is over and IF the shooter left it there. If a plate is not hit exactly right it may not fall out. With conventional plate no problem. If the plate moves but does not fall off, its range failure, RO calls stop and that's it.

My opinion is they are definitely fun for practice but have no place in USPSA competition. USPSA principles are clear, the same shooting challenge should be presented to all competitors. And further if you make a target difficult to maintain, set up, and score it a just plain Headache.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[Steve J]

Robert, they are only devices to hold USPSA legal plates. As long as the plates only fall when hit and don't create range failures, moving steel targets like this create the perfect challenge. Moving targets are the most practical of targets, and that's a good thing in a practical shooting sport where precious little of its practical origins remain.

There absolutely nothing remotely practical about a moving unpredicatable plate. Ever seen anything remotely resembling a moving plate shoot back at you?

That's pretty absurd. Ever see a two-dimensional static threat that never moves? Unpredictable movement is absolutely practical. But aside from that, the movement isn't even unpredictable, at least not to practiced shooters. I do agree that the single spring used my MGM is unsatisfactory. The latching system used on the original Texas Star is absolutely reliable.

[Aloha Robert]

Glad Steve agrees it's unpredictable which more or less defacto violates the intent of the sport which is COF presents same challenge to every competitor

[Tim Egan]

John Amidon was shown several videos of the PPR during our testing phase for last years Area 1 match.

Here is his quote from an email to me on 4/13/2009 where I asked for his ruling.

"yeah it’s a legal target like the Texas Star, just a little sicker."

[wide45]

It's legal, but not good. It's a gimmick. I don't know any club that has money to piss away on an expensive apparatus of so limited use.

[Aloha Robert]

John Amidon was shown several videos of the PPR during our testing phase for last years Area 1 match.

Here is his quote from an email to me on 4/13/2009 where I asked for his ruling.

"yeah it’s a legal target like the Texas Star, just a little sicker."

Schadenfreude

[Steve J]

Glad Steve agrees it's unpredictable which more or less defacto violates the intent of the sport which is COF presents same challenge to every competitor

Ah, but it's not at all unpredictable if you know how to shoot it. Just like the Texas Star. I know exactly how it will spin depending on which plate I shoot next, and just like the Star I know that if I can clean it fast enough it won't move at all. These are marvelous challenges for shooters of all levels and they will make people better shooters.

[sixinch]

Steve J, Thanks for the Kind words! And as far a "pissing away" we now have 18 PPR's from coast to coast! Mike @ MGM has added a link from his web site to the manufacture of the PPR. to help spread the word. But now there is a new activator coming for the PPR. @

. Enjoy...........sixinch

[open17]

Glad Steve agrees it's unpredictable which more or less defacto violates the intent of the sport which is COF presents same challenge to every competitor

Star, PPR, turners/swingers/floppers/beartraps whatever---as long as they are reset consistently they PRESENT the same challenge to every shooter. After that it's directly

related to shooter input. Action/Reaction, physics.

If you don't like the star and PPR you probably wouldn't like this one either, but when

I set it up I hear a lot more laughter than cussing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTXCzTEOz1U&NR=1&feature=fvwp

However---looking at the Area 1 2010 stages I'm NOT looking forward to the PPR shooting

Single Stack!

[Steve J]

Yes. Robert misquoted me. I find these targets very predictable. If you don't, practice more. As far as is not being 1911 "single stack" frendly (and I shoot SS Div exclusively) at least it doesn't have 10 plates.

[Aloha Robert]

Yes. Robert misquoted me. I find these targets very predictable. If you don't, practice more. As far as is not being 1911 "single stack" frendly (and I shoot SS Div exclusively) at least it doesn't have 10 plates.

I appologize to Steve if he thinks I misquoted him.

It is predicatable only to the extent if is set up perfectly and if maintained perfectly and if wind is absent and if you shoot in correct order and if the weights act as they are supposed to and if, if, if.

Any student of physics will tell you after a certain number of unpredictable variables (usually three or more, but depending on the system) behavior is unpredicatable and the result is what is called emergent property. So for most shooters in most situations it will be unpredictable.

For good shooters like Steve who can practice on it, it is a fun challenge. But the majority of shooters will find it a frustrating prop and not a fun part of the match

However I think John Amidon's comment really sums it up,"it's sicker".

Ergo, my conclussion

Schadenfreude

[Tim Egan]

Aloha Robert,

Your conclusion is your own, but just so you know, it doesnt match the comments we had after last years area 1 match,

338 shooters got to engage it for the first time, and we only had one negative comment about it on the post match survey.

Over 250 surveys were returned post match.

And, any moving or activated target is subject to the same and other variables that you have listed in your comments.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Tim Egan

[hopalong]

The Polish plate rack, just like any other "Moving" type target is more of a "Get you out of your comfort level" target than any other thing. It does the same for everyone IF they shoot it the same as the prior shooter. HOW the next shooter attempts it and how he hit it is just like shooting a US popper or Pepper popper or any other reaction target. HIT the plates in the center and they will do the same for me as you as long as you are shooting the same PF as I am. (all production shoots minor so it is the same for them) SSTK shooters CHOOSE thier powerfactor so just deal with it.

Some people get sensory overload when they come up on targets like this, some don't. IT is that simple.

OH, and having the ONLY Plish Plate rack on the east side of the Mississippi River I've heard MANY comments. Some like it some don't (WAY MORE that do than don't).

Has it paid itself off in less than a year ?

YOU BET, IT also helped raise $7000.00 for St. Jude Childrens Research Hospital.

OH, and if you think it is a challenge with a single stack, try a 6 shot revolver. (I cleaned it without it moving the first time I ever saw it, last year at A-1)

Hopalong

[Aloha Robert]

Aloha Robert,

Your conclusion is your own, but just so you know, it doesnt match the comments we had after last years area 1 match,

338 shooters got to engage it for the first time, and we only had one negative comment about it on the post match survey.

Over 250 surveys were returned post match.

And, any moving or activated target is subject to the same and other variables that you have listed in your comments.

Tim Egan is a great guy and puts on the best match you can immagine, so no surprising no complaints. I was there and it was a fabulous terrific match.

BUT I just got some inside info that shows Tim is truly a Diplomatic and very smart guy. He figured out the proverbial way have your polish cake and eat it too! In what I consider a stroke of genius, for the upcoming Area 1 he figured out a way for all classes of shooters to enjoy the prop. Either spin or no spin.

With no spin the shooter would have to retreat to add a little time. It is such a great solution.

I salute Tim and retract my opinion of Schadenfreude because Tim converted it into Polish Sweet Cake.

And thanks for the wake up from Hopalong as well, great to know can happen with good works.

[Bassman]

I am LUCKY enough to have the PPR developed and tested at my home range. I think it's is a Great challenge. My wife just started shooting less than a year ago, and the first time she shot it she was in love. It is here favorite target, she wants it in a stage at every match we shoot. Everyone in this sport should enjoy a new challenge.

[sargenv]

I don't know any club that has money to piss away on an expensive apparatus of so limited use

We bought two of them... Farley was nice enough to give us a "Volume" discount

We will also be using either one or both of them at an all shotgun match coming up in three weeks.. It is only as limited as you think it is.. In that case, I can see where it has value as a moving target.. since a shotgun's main use is to hit moving and flying targets.

[LPatterson]

I find the PPR to be a fun challenge and managed to knock em all off with only 1 reload but that happens on every 8 round array shooting a Revo. My shooting bud/favorite opponent has identified 12 Revo shooters for this years Area 1.

[JON]

I remember the first time we shot the star and it was at a points match. The host club purchased the star and had the opportunity to use it for a couple weeks before the match and had a definite advantage at the points match. To top it off it was activated by a popper that started it moving. Many people had to do extra reloads and some the language was not fit for the range. So I think it will be a definte advantage for those who have shot it before.

Should be a fun prop and am looking forward to it.

How could you practice for the PPR without one?

Jon

[smokshwn]

Glad Steve agrees it's unpredictable which more or less defacto violates the intent of the sport which is COF presents same challenge to every competitor

Ah, but it's not at all unpredictable if you know how to shoot it. Just like the Texas Star. I know exactly how it will spin depending on which plate I shoot next, and just like the Star I know that if I can clean it fast enough it won't move at all. These are marvelous challenges for shooters of all levels and they will make people better shooters.

The prop is absolutely predictable. Each plate will be exactly where "YOU" the shooter place it according to your ability to HIT said plates. If you don't want the targets to spin, shoot faster and get better hits. The shooter has complete control via hitting the plates and in which order, timing them to keep the prop flat if they so choose and if their ability can produce the hits. Therefor the prop is not the unpredictable element here. The shooter is. Either accept that and work on your own shortcomings, or blame the prop, your choice. But clearly the prop is governed by a very stringent set of physical properties that are only altered by the actions of the shooter.

Two of our clubs have shot this prop over and over again through all of its development. We are very familiar with it, if you set it up properly (like any other prop) it works with a very high degree of reliability.

To suggest that a target is not practical due to its lack of return fire is one of the most ridiculously vacuous arguements I have ever heard. I have shot a lot of matches with a lot of different targeting systems and never once experience a single target or prop shooting back at me. So by your arguement, they should all be declared illegal targets????

Yes I know the PPR is a little bit of a mindgame, and it exposes weaknesses, and that makes people uncomfortable. But there is video on top of video of shooters of all abilities shooting it successfully. Maybe all that means is that if the prop intimidates you that badly, then there is a hole in your game that can be filled in.

Edited June 15, 2010 by smokshwn

[smokshwn]

It's legal, but not good. It's a gimmick. I don't know any club that has money to piss away on an expensive apparatus of so limited use.

Good thing all the clubs buying them don't agree with you