Power factor

[bradthegunmaniac]

What has more felt recoil 115 grain at 1116 fps or a 147 at 930 fps?

[GrumpyOne]

To most, it's subjective. Some say the 147 has more of a push than the 115, while others feel that while the 115 is "snappier", it lets them get back on target faster. Really, it all depends on what powder you are using to push them. What will you be shooting them out of?

[HS101]

To go along with what Grumpyone said.... I think a lot of the perception of recoil also has to do with your experience level. I am still new, and find I like the 147s much better than the 115s. The "pushy" recoil is more comfortable to me... Also, I find my sights "quicker" (to my perception, but not necessarily to the clock... All of the experienced shooters on this forum can't be wrong...). I have a feeling that as my trigger control and grip get better, I might find myself moving back to lighter bullets. (I just ordered some 124s to try working up a load to test this theory)

[MemphisMechanic]

If you're shooting Production with a lightweight polymer pistol (Glock, M&P, etc) the 124 and 147 are king. Pretty much everyone uses them.

The short answer to your question: You will have the least perceived recoil and muzzle flip with a 147, and a small amount of a very fast-burning powder under it. (This is why titegroup, solo1000, VV N320 and N10 are so popular).

[Sarge]

If you're shooting Production with a lightweight polymer pistol (Glock, M&P, etc) the 124 and 147 are king. Pretty much everyone uses them.

The short answer to your question: You will have the least perceived recoil and muzzle flip with a 147, and a small amount of a very fast-burning powder under it. (This is why titegroup, solo1000, VV N320 and N10 are so popular).

+1 to this and the other posts. 115's are pretty much not used unless a shooter is using factory ammo and thats all they can find. Don't get me wrong, some do load and shoot 115's just not a significant number. The felt recoil spectrum goes from very snappy with a 115 to a push, or what I felt "sluggish", with a 147. That is why the 124 has a strong following along with the 147.

I am not saying this is common or gospel, but for me, it was harder to get my gun to run on 147's because of the mild recoil and pressures. It is easy to load them light and want to change springs etc looking for that rumored .22 feel. For me it caused slow cycling, sluggish operation etc which lead to failures in the gun of one type or another. So I have now gone back to 124's and actually load them to +135 PF which for all intents and purposes is still not a hot load.

[Flyin40]

For me its always been the lighter the bullet the snappier or quicker the gun recoils and the heavier bullet always feels like a slower recoil and a harder push in my hand.

Flyin

[GrumpyOne]

If you're shooting Production with a lightweight polymer pistol (Glock, M&P, etc) the 124 and 147 are king. Pretty much everyone uses them.

The short answer to your question: You will have the least perceived recoil and muzzle flip with a 147, and a small amount of a very fast-burning powder under it. (This is why titegroup, solo1000, VV N320 and N10 are so popular).

+1 to this and the other posts. 115's are pretty much not used unless a shooter is using factory ammo and thats all they can find. Don't get me wrong, some do load and shoot 115's just not a significant number. The felt recoil spectrum goes from very snappy with a 115 to a push, or what I felt "sluggish", with a 147. That is why the 124 has a strong following along with the 147.

I am not saying this is common or gospel, but for me, it was harder to get my gun to run on 147's because of the mild recoil and pressures. It is easy to load them light and want to change springs etc looking for that rumored .22 feel. For me it caused slow cycling, sluggish operation etc which lead to failures in the gun of one type or another. So I have now gone back to 124's and actually load them to +135 PF which for all intents and purposes is still not a hot load.

Not exactly true. I use MG 115 JHP's in my open gun. The whole reason is gas. I need lots of gas to work the comp, therfore I need a lighter bullet, so I can cram more powder in the case. 115 MG JHP 10.2 grains of VV N105, OAL of 1.235 (mind you, this is a 38 super though).

[Sarge]

Grumpy, I think we're talking production? I don't even shoot an open gun and I know lighter bullets are the way to go there.

[GrumpyOne]

Well, it's just my .02 worth anyway. The OP never said production, open, limited, etc. So, I was just trying to give them any and all info I had....

No harm, no foul....

[bradthegunmaniac]

Thanks guys I'am shooting production. I feel like I get back on target a little faster with the 147 but have only shot one match.

[G-ManBart]

Thanks guys I'am shooting production. I feel like I get back on target a little faster with the 147 but have only shot one match.

At this point in your shooting its really "pick one and practice" as Flex would say. Eventually, you may find a lighter bullet works better, but maybe not. I've shot plenty of 115 and 124s in my Production gun, but I only load 147s and that's what I use for matches. It's also not just an experience/ability level thing in that plenty of the world's best use 147s in their Production guns as well...like Dave Sevigny was shooting Atlanta Arms 147JHP (Team Glock load) and I know quite a few other GM's that use something similar. I do have some 135s on the way, and I think they might be a nice compromise, but it's not likely to be a huge difference. R,

[Duane Thomas]

I've gone back and forth, but these days, in back-to-back shooting, I have to say that, at the same power factor, the 147s are much milder - not to mention quite a bit less noisy - and that's what I use and recommend.

[Chris Christian]

+1 to the 147 in 9mm, although you may need to re-spring your gun to reliably handle them. I shoot a standard M&P and have no problems with a 147 grain@880 fps. IMHO it is softer than 115s and 124s at the same PF, and does drop steel better than the lighter slugs. I do think that most of the top 9mm shooters in IDPA or USPSA Production use 147 for those reasons.

Chris Christian

[Shibby]

Why don't you try both and see what is more accurate in your gun. Pick the most accurate and stick with it. Once you shoot a couple of hundred rounds with either bullet and get used to the timing of the gun, you'll be able to shoot just as fast with either bullet.

Edit To Add: I'm talking about picking between 124 and 147, not 115 as mentioned in the OP. SORRY...

Edited March 1, 2010 by Shibby

[Nik Habicht]

I've gone back and forth, but these days, in back-to-back shooting, I have to say that, at the same power factor, the 147s are much milder - not to mention quite a bit less noisy - and that's what I use and recommend.

Years ago, when I went from 115s to 147s, the difference was noticeable and I learned a lot from shooting 147s. Recently I finished loading the last 147s I had on hand, and switched to loading some 125s. I don't notice a difference in a match environment anymore -- between 115s, 125s, and 147s -- but do in a practice environment.

If you're new to the game, I highly recommend 147s for being easier to learn to shoot well...

[Norm Lee]

Is this a trick question? The 147 gr load at 930 will recoil more than a 115 gr load at 1116 fps. If you were to load these up to the same power factor, see Duane's post, the 147 gr load can be tailored to have lower recoil.

Cheers,

Norm

[bradthegunmaniac]

Just feels like it kicks less even with the higher power factor.

[G-ManBart]

Is this a trick question? The 147 gr load at 930 will recoil more than a 115 gr load at 1116 fps. If you were to load these up to the same power factor, see Duane's post, the 147 gr load can be tailored to have lower recoil.

Cheers,

Norm

Yeah, not so much. The two loads mentioned are within 8PF of one another. Most people can't even tell a difference between two otherwise identical loads that are 10PF apart because the extreme spread in either load causes them to overlap one another considerably.

The load with the 115s will also likely have a larger powder charge, which is going faster, which adds to the recoil impulse compared with the 147s.

I'd expect the majority of folks would shoot the two loads above and think that the 147 at 930 has less recoil. It's not as simple as 135PF will have more recoil than 130PF. R,

[BradGannaway]

I just got some 147 SWCs. I've been shooting 115s out of my G34 in production, but I've been talking to some guys and reading on the forum that I might want to try some 147s to see how I like them.

I got up a little early this morning to load some 147s with 3.2gr of Titegroup. I got 6 loaded and my decapper pin broke.

So now I have to wait for another pin to some in until I can really get a feel for the loads.

BG

[Sarge]

I just got some 147 SWCs. I've been shooting 115s out of my G34 in production, but I've been talking to some guys and reading on the forum that I might want to try some 147s to see how I like them.

I got up a little early this morning to load some 147s with 3.2gr of Titegroup. I got 6 loaded and my decapper pin broke.

So now I have to wait for another pin to some in until I can really get a feel for the loads.

BG

Brad, For 5 bucks or so you should buy a bag to have on hand. As you can tell they break. I have found bent ones before when I cleaned my dies.

[diablodawg]

Wasn't there some mathmatical formula that determined a heavier, slower moving bullet causes less recoil? Obviously, recoil is perception and probably 70% the shooter, but when the equal and opposite reaction is against a known mass (i.e. a slide) wouldn't lower velocities cause lower percieved recoil? I have been thinking about this alot, but have neither the brains or the physics background to wrap my mind around it.

I think it goes something like this:

If a light, fast bullet causes a 'equal and opposite reaction' against a fixed slide weight, wouldn't it cause higher slide velocities thereby increasing felt recoil.

Therefore: a slow, heavy bullet causing slower slide velocities would cause less felt recoil.

Of course the big factor here is spring rates acting opposite the slide's ability to move rearward, which is why lighter springs cause more energy to be transferred to the weight of the slide versus the weight of the spring- hence less muzzle flip.

Somebody with a physics or math background please feel free to stomp on my thinking in the name of faster shooting.

[BradGannaway]

I just got some 147 SWCs. I've been shooting 115s out of my G34 in production, but I've been talking to some guys and reading on the forum that I might want to try some 147s to see how I like them.

I got up a little early this morning to load some 147s with 3.2gr of Titegroup. I got 6 loaded and my decapper pin broke.

So now I have to wait for another pin to some in until I can really get a feel for the loads.

BG

Brad, For 5 bucks or so you should buy a bag to have on hand. As you can tell they break. I have found bent ones before when I cleaned my dies.

I know, I know, I know.......... I just can't make myself buy things that i don't need RIGHT NOW!!! It's a weakness I have

[CocoBolo]

I've never understood why anyone would want to shoot 147's, I do like the 125 better than 115 as it feels better. A 125 precison moly or bayou bullet takes less powder than any jacketed bullet to hit pf so if you are looking to take the almost no recoil and almost no flip of the 9 mm minor down a notch then you should consider getting your 147gr in moly or lead, provided your gun can handle it.

Powders can make a difference as well. Unlike open guns where powder can give the gun a whole new personality the production and limited gun respond but not as much. Fast is good I use WST, N320, TiteGroup, 231, and Clays. Of these only TiteGroup is not recommended for Precison Moly bullets.

My personal prefernce in my Infinity 9 mm (Limited steel/minor) is to load 125's (bayou bullet) at about 140pf (5.0gr of WST) off the chart and it will rock your boat a little but it cycles the gun really nice, knocks down steel with authority. A jacketed 125 with WST in a 4" or longer gun will take about 4.7gr of WST to hit @130 pf which should be your target pf (4.2-4.3 titegroup). With Bayou or Precision Moly coated you can drop about .2-.3 to get the same fps.

In my actual testing on a measured course of fire with different loads one being a bit harsh the other soft and flat the differnce in time was .2 seconds on a 7.5 second run, not enough to move me up to GM. Some will say that is huge but for a "C" class shooter thats looking for 10 seconds in a stage its nothing. Don't expect a miracle when going to a heavier bullet.