Substitute for N350

[lcs]

As I said, my only experience is 9 major.

The large difference in case volume and resulting burn dynamics between 9 and 38S/SC could explain the difference in experience. I know people shooting 9 major guns configured with barrel holes who find Silhoutte to be way to dirty. I have witnessed at least one gun that jams from dirt consistently after 125-150 rounds of Silhouette loads making 170PF.

I shot Silhouette in 9 major for a couple of years w/without poople holes. Now shoot 38SC and Silhouette. Silhouette did initially burn a little dirty in 9 and produced corn meal in 38SC. For whatever scientific reason in both configurations, a tighter crimp stopped both dirt and corn meal. Accuracy was not affected. Never had a gun fail to run with either powder during a high round count match (area match for example) FWIW.

[XRe]

For whatever scientific reason in both configurations, a tighter crimp stopped both dirt and corn meal.

That's interesting data - any idea what your crimp is running? (ie, I crimp mine to .378", for instance...)

[lcs]

For whatever scientific reason in both configurations, a tighter crimp stopped both dirt and corn meal.

That's interesting data - any idea what your crimp is running? (ie, I crimp mine to .378", for instance...)

I'm using the LCD. After the initial setup of a "half turn" adjustment, I would just turn another 1/16 of a turn and test until the corn meal stopped. I then pulled a bullet to see if I was over crimping and I saw a light ring. I have not loaded any 9 major in awhile, but I used the same procedure. Never measured the crimp.

[larry cazes]

Matt,

When I talked to Dan about powders/loads for my Bedell we sort of got off topic a little and he said he could tell virtually no difference between guns with the popple holes and those without when using the same ammo.

I agree with Dan and have done the analysis to prove it to myself. I had a spare 38sup barrel that I won. Gave it to my smith to fit and shot it for a while and then had him drill popple holes. No difference except for the addition of lots of blast and noise. Haven't had a gun built with ANY barrel holes since.

[usmc1974]

If you're not concerned about staying closer to SAAMI spec pressure (N350 is already pretty high, anyway), 7625 is the powder you want. Cleaner than N350, very cheap. 4756 is another good choice - lower pressure, but requires a little more powder (9-ish grains instead of 8-ish), so it evens out - even cleaner and cheaper, and your load would basically be SAAMI spec.

Have you asked Dan what substitute you should use in that gun?

Is ther a 38 super major load for a 135 fmj round using either 7625 or 4756. This may be way out there but, what about varget or the like.

Edited February 14, 2010 by usmc1974

[XRe]

I'm using the LCD. After the initial setup of a "half turn" adjustment, I would just turn another 1/16 of a turn and test until the corn meal stopped. I then pulled a bullet to see if I was over crimping and I saw a light ring. I have not loaded any 9 major in awhile, but I used the same procedure. Never measured the crimp.

You can measure crimp just like any other measurement - takes some care, but... It allows you to compare that variable to everything else... A little ring in the bullet won't make any difference - in fact, you seem to be able to crimp the living hell out of a bullet without really affecting accuracy (well, at least in pistol stuff...).

[G-ManBart]

Is ther a 38 super major load for a 135 fmj round using either 7625 or 4756. This may be way out there but, what about varget or the like.

You'd have no problem making Major with a 135 and either powder. It won't be as flat shooting as lighter bullets, but it would work fine otherwise. Depending on the specific lot and temp, you'd probably need something in the high 6 to low 7 range with 7625. I'd probably start at 6.5 and work up. With 4756 (again, depending on the lot and temp) you'd probably need something close to 8gr. I'd probably go with 7.5 first and work up. R,

[usmc1974]

Thanks Bart, what do you think of Alliant power pistol 6.8 is sending 135 at 1255 so they say. Is this a good, fair powder? Is it working the comp? How much flater is a 124 over a 135. I know a lot of questions. Thanks

[SnivelingDramaQueen]

For my GRAND MASTER

7.8 grs VV N350

CCI 500

124 grs FMJ

31.60 mm

For my NITRO STI with 2 hole on barell

7.9 grs VV N350

CCI 500

124 grs FMJ

31.60 mm

What is a good substitute for N350.... it's getting pretty expensive and impossible for me to find locally. I am currently running a 5" Bedell custom 38SC with no holes in the bbl. 124gr MG JHP, 8.2gr of N350 @1.245" Remington small rifle primer and this yields me 172pf. A few guys in the club run True Blue but they all have holes in their bbl's. We get a good deal on it here locally and it's readily available. I want to switch to something a little cheaper and more available without changing the way the gun shoots, is this possible? I searched and there is a wealth of powder info here, a little too much for an Open Noob to make sense of as far as which powders are similar, speed, pressure, dot tracking,etc.

Thanks,

Matt

Edited February 15, 2010 by ZeljkoLucic

[nYdGeo]

I recently did a bit of testing in my STI Competitor .39 Super with assistance from one of my brothers (who has only shot 3 USPSA matches, all shooting limited), and the Master-class father of a very well known, sponsored, multiple national champion GM. First we loaded several loads of 7625, then several of N350 into mags, and then we all shot them, not knowing which loads we were shooting.

With regards to softness, neither I or my very experienced friend could tell any difference; my brother thought the 7625 was a hair softer. All three of us unanimously agreed that the N350 loads clearly shot flatter.

We did the same thing this time adding some loads consisting of 12.0gr of AA #7 behind the same 115's. In this second round, everyone agreed that the #7 load was not quite as soft as the other two, which this time none of us could tell apart. We also unanimously agreed that the #7 loads were by far the flattest shooting with the best up and down dot tracking. The N350 was next though not nearly as flat, and the dot movement less stable. The dot never left the lens, but danced around a bit. The 7625 was very soft with very consistent dot movement, just more dot movement.

I guess that some of the newer pistols, especially the 9mm major pistols are made and tuned differently, and may behave far better with 7625, but the couple that I have shot were again very soft but not all that flat-shooting. At this time, I officially don't get the 7625 thing even though the GM that I referred to swears by it. All told its been compared in my STI to #7, N350, 3N37, 3N38, N105 and 4756. It is equal to the next softest powder, but has more muzzle rise than any of the others, and in the case of #7, 3N38 and N105, considerably more.

Performance vs value-wise, I'm looking hard at #7. If you just run a very tight crimp, #7 suddenly runs more than clean enough to get through a few matches without cleaning. Still need to look at Autocomp.

But to get back on topic, I guess that this isn't a substitute for N350, but N350 is a very unique powder. It is quite slow burning, falling between 3N37 and 3N38, but has such a high nitroglycerin content that it makes a lot of power per grain, hence the small charges in comparison to those other two. IMHO, and to some fellow shooters, N350 is a great choice for 9mm Major. I did find N350 to be a bit harder on .38 Super brass than some other powders I tested.

My personal experience would say if you want the same, soft recoil impulse and don't mind some extra muzzle-flip, go with the 7625. 7625 is a very fast powder and I don't claim to understand how it works well in so many open guns, but somehow it appears to. It is also very nice (easy) on brass in my experience which is a nice little benefit I guess. I could have also recommended the Silhouette, but I found it to be very temperature sensitive which is a big no-no to me.

N350 is such a unique powder...there really isn't anything just like it. Powder is the least expensive component; shoot what you like, what works. I hope that you are able to find a reliable source for it.

[CocoBolo]

I recently did a bit of testing in my STI Competitor .39 Super with assistance from one of my brothers (who has only shot 3 USPSA matches, all shooting limited), and the Master-class father of a very well known, sponsored, multiple national champion GM. First we loaded several loads of 7625, then several of N350 into mags, and then we all shot them, not knowing which loads we were shooting.

With regards to softness, neither I or my very experienced friend could tell any difference; my brother thought the 7625 was a hair softer. All three of us unanimously agreed that the N350 loads clearly shot flatter.

We did the same thing this time adding some loads consisting of 12.0gr of AA #7 behind the same 115's. In this second round, everyone agreed that the #7 load was not quite as soft as the other two, which this time none of us could tell apart. We also unanimously agreed that the #7 loads were by far the flattest shooting with the best up and down dot tracking. The N350 was next though not nearly as flat, and the dot movement less stable. The dot never left the lens, but danced around a bit. The 7625 was very soft with very consistent dot movement, just more dot movement.

I guess that some of the newer pistols, especially the 9mm major pistols are made and tuned differently, and may behave far better with 7625, but the couple that I have shot were again very soft but not all that flat-shooting. At this time, I officially don't get the 7625 thing even though the GM that I referred to swears by it. All told its been compared in my STI to #7, N350, 3N37, 3N38, N105 and 4756. It is equal to the next softest powder, but has more muzzle rise than any of the others, and in the case of #7, 3N38 and N105, considerably more.

Performance vs value-wise, I'm looking hard at #7. If you just run a very tight crimp, #7 suddenly runs more than clean enough to get through a few matches without cleaning. Still need to look at Autocomp.

But to get back on topic, I guess that this isn't a substitute for N350, but N350 is a very unique powder. It is quite slow burning, falling between 3N37 and 3N38, but has such a high nitroglycerin content that it makes a lot of power per grain, hence the small charges in comparison to those other two. IMHO, and to some fellow shooters, N350 is a great choice for 9mm Major. I did find N350 to be a bit harder on .38 Super brass than some other powders I tested.

My personal experience would say if you want the same, soft recoil impulse and don't mind some extra muzzle-flip, go with the 7625. 7625 is a very fast powder and I don't claim to understand how it works well in so many open guns, but somehow it appears to. It is also very nice (easy) on brass in my experience which is a nice little benefit I guess. I could have also recommended the Silhouette, but I found it to be very temperature sensitive which is a big no-no to me.

N350 is such a unique powder...there really isn't anything just like it. Powder is the least expensive component; shoot what you like, what works. I hope that you are able to find a reliable source for it.

Not sure of the Vintage of your Competitor, I had two sold one, the other I did a make over on. The two powders that work in it best are AA#7 and N105 you need a lot of gas to work either the old 3 port screw on or the newer TruBore. If you really want to run N350 you need a better comp, and I strongly recommend the Brazos ThunderComp. If you have the screw on your gun is way nose heavy the Brazos will help that. I don't recommend the Bedell TI, which I now have on mine, it works good at 175pf but below that its snappy. If you have the TruBore version one or two poppel holes will tame it a bunch, I don't like the holes but my smith that bought my Competitor true bore put one in it and it shot much better. The slide on the competitor is very heavy, putting it on a diet helps as well. Other powders I tried you can skip, HS6, 3N37, TrueBlue, IMR7625, PowerPistol. TrueBlue shoots very similar to N350 just dirty and more pressure.

I run AA#7 in 38Super and 9 major. It is chunky dirty at 170pf and clean at 175pf, I don't think its the crimp, but you could be right. 10.5gr with 125gr Zero JHP set 1.240, it will get dangerous at @11gr with a 125.

Edited April 25, 2010 by CocoBolo

[GrumpyOne]

Not sure of the Vintage of your Competitor, I had two sold one, the other I did a make over on. The two powders that work in it best are AA#7 and N105 you need a lot of gas to work either the old 3 port screw on or the newer TruBore. If you really want to run N350 you need a better comp, and I strongly recommend the Brazos ThunderComp. If you have the screw on your gun is way nose heavy the Brazos will help that. I don't recommend the Bedell TI, which I now have on mine, it works good at 175pf but below that its snappy. If you have the TruBore version one or two poppel holes will tame it a bunch, I don't like the holes but my smith that bought my Competitor true bore put one in it and it shot much better. The slide on the competitor is very heavy, putting it on a diet helps as well. Other powders I tried you can skip, HS6, 3N37, TrueBlue, IMR7625, PowerPistol. TrueBlue shoots very similar to N350 just dirty and more pressure.

I run AA#7 in 38Super and 9 major. It is chunky dirty at 170pf and clean at 175pf, I don't think its the crimp, but you could be right. 10.5gr with 125gr Zero JHP set 1.240, it will get dangerous at @11gr with a 125.

Coco, I was just wondering about your thoughts on trying to run Power Pistol in a super. When I first got my Trubor, I tried to make Power Pistol work, but to no avail. I ended up loading about 8.2 grains of PP with a 124 JHP, flattened the crap out of the primers, had some flow, still wouldn't work the slide like I wanted. What did you try?

[eric nielsen]

[from post 35]

Max and Todd both like 7625 and for the same reasons, I asked them specifically. It is quiet [for an open gun] since the powder is more completely burned as the bullet leaves the gun. It kicks you back less. It does flip more but is predictable.

Kicking back less with less rocket effect is nice any time your body is leaning or twisted. Barricades, walls that end with foot-faults, shooting on the move laterally - that kind of thing.

I have not had the same experience with regards to 7625 & fired cases. Mine were expanded at the base quite a bit. I think it depends on your chamber and free bore and head space. One load I loved to shoot was 7625 and 115's but it was hell on the brass.

Also have not had the same experience with N350 and low pressure. If it works in your gun with minimal pressure signs, great, but at the old power factor [175 for open & limited] that powder was famous for de-priming your cases in the gun.

N350 is probably best known for the big flame-balls every 3rd or 4th round. Again that depends on the gun. Might never happen, might happen every shot. 3N38 may cure the flame-balls or not, depends.

In general I like 3N38 the best but $$$, Vectan SP2 is 2nd but no longer imported, HS6 is third. I shoot mostly HS6 with 115s and save my stash of SP2 for when I can shoot tournaments again. I might try N350 again because it does give a nice flat-shooting gun.

[nYdGeo]

I recently did a bit of testing in my STI Competitor .39 Super with assistance from one of my brothers (who has only shot 3 USPSA matches, all shooting limited), and the Master-class father of a very well known, sponsored, multiple national champion GM. First we loaded several loads of 7625, then several of N350 into mags, and then we all shot them, not knowing which loads we were shooting.

With regards to softness, neither I or my very experienced friend could tell any difference; my brother thought the 7625 was a hair softer. All three of us unanimously agreed that the N350 loads clearly shot flatter.

We did the same thing this time adding some loads consisting of 12.0gr of AA #7 behind the same 115's. In this second round, everyone agreed that the #7 load was not quite as soft as the other two, which this time none of us could tell apart. We also unanimously agreed that the #7 loads were by far the flattest shooting with the best up and down dot tracking. The N350 was next though not nearly as flat, and the dot movement less stable. The dot never left the lens, but danced around a bit. The 7625 was very soft with very consistent dot movement, just more dot movement.

I guess that some of the newer pistols, especially the 9mm major pistols are made and tuned differently, and may behave far better with 7625, but the couple that I have shot were again very soft but not all that flat-shooting. At this time, I officially don't get the 7625 thing even though the GM that I referred to swears by it. All told its been compared in my STI to #7, N350, 3N37, 3N38, N105 and 4756. It is equal to the next softest powder, but has more muzzle rise than any of the others, and in the case of #7, 3N38 and N105, considerably more.

Performance vs value-wise, I'm looking hard at #7. If you just run a very tight crimp, #7 suddenly runs more than clean enough to get through a few matches without cleaning. Still need to look at Autocomp.

But to get back on topic, I guess that this isn't a substitute for N350, but N350 is a very unique powder. It is quite slow burning, falling between 3N37 and 3N38, but has such a high nitroglycerin content that it makes a lot of power per grain, hence the small charges in comparison to those other two. IMHO, and to some fellow shooters, N350 is a great choice for 9mm Major. I did find N350 to be a bit harder on .38 Super brass than some other powders I tested.

My personal experience would say if you want the same, soft recoil impulse and don't mind some extra muzzle-flip, go with the 7625. 7625 is a very fast powder and I don't claim to understand how it works well in so many open guns, but somehow it appears to. It is also very nice (easy) on brass in my experience which is a nice little benefit I guess. I could have also recommended the Silhouette, but I found it to be very temperature sensitive which is a big no-no to me.

N350 is such a unique powder...there really isn't anything just like it. Powder is the least expensive component; shoot what you like, what works. I hope that you are able to find a reliable source for it.

Not sure of the Vintage of your Competitor, I had two sold one, the other I did a make over on. The two powders that work in it best are AA#7 and N105 you need a lot of gas to work either the old 3 port screw on or the newer TruBore. If you really want to run N350 you need a better comp, and I strongly recommend the Brazos ThunderComp. If you have the screw on your gun is way nose heavy the Brazos will help that. I don't recommend the Bedell TI, which I now have on mine, it works good at 175pf but below that its snappy. If you have the TruBore version one or two poppel holes will tame it a bunch, I don't like the holes but my smith that bought my Competitor true bore put one in it and it shot much better. The slide on the competitor is very heavy, putting it on a diet helps as well. Other powders I tried you can skip, HS6, 3N37, TrueBlue, IMR7625, PowerPistol. TrueBlue shoots very similar to N350 just dirty and more pressure.

I run AA#7 in 38Super and 9 major. It is chunky dirty at 170pf and clean at 175pf, I don't think its the crimp, but you could be right. 10.5gr with 125gr Zero JHP set 1.240, it will get dangerous at @11gr with a 125.

Its been a while, but we talked about my Competitor before, its in my sig. Was I think a 2003, looks like a TruBore and my gunsmith says it is, but at the same time looks like a threaded version on a Bull Barrel because it was not perfectly centered rotationally, as if they have the comp slightly cocked to one side when they locked it on. Slide was taken from 12.5oz bare to 9.75oz, and two barrel ports (done in the fashion of GM Max Michel's) were added. That and tuning the mags are all that has been done. Would love to have the weight of a Ti comp up front, but haven;t found one that I like. Might try a light-weight steel like the Thundercomp, or just have a TruBore fit and the barrel ports redone.

[nYdGeo]

[from post 35]

Max and Todd both like 7625 and for the same reasons, I asked them specifically. It is quiet [for an open gun] since the powder is more completely burned as the bullet leaves the gun. It kicks you back less. It does flip more but is predictable.

Kicking back less with less rocket effect is nice any time your body is leaning or twisted. Barricades, walls that end with foot-faults, shooting on the move laterally - that kind of thing.

I have not had the same experience with regards to 7625 & fired cases. Mine were expanded at the base quite a bit. I think it depends on your chamber and free bore and head space. One load I loved to shoot was 7625 and 115's but it was hell on the brass.

Also have not had the same experience with N350 and low pressure. If it works in your gun with minimal pressure signs, great, but at the old power factor [175 for open & limited] that powder was famous for de-priming your cases in the gun.

N350 is probably best known for the big flame-balls every 3rd or 4th round. Again that depends on the gun. Might never happen, might happen every shot. 3N38 may cure the flame-balls or not, depends.

In general I like 3N38 the best but $$$, Vectan SP2 is 2nd but no longer imported, HS6 is third. I shoot mostly HS6 with 115s and save my stash of SP2 for when I can shoot tournaments again. I might try N350 again because it does give a nice flat-shooting gun.

Thanks for the great input. I never got to talk to Todd about that powder choice when I was in his squad at area-4 years ago, and though I've known Max since he was about 14, I haven't had the opportunity to speak with him since he joined the Army! The info makes sense, too, because though I found 7625 to have a lot of muzzle flip, strangely enough the dot movement and the behavior of the pistol in general is very consistent.

I may have not written some of my original post clearly, because I agree with you about N350 and the cases...at least .38 Super cases. Even at a 170PF the cases bulge far more than I'd like, though I didn't observe any primer issues. Very strange to see the cases so swollen, but no pressure signs on the primers.

And oh man, if they would just import SP2 again and keep it coming, my powder choice would be made. But they won't and they aren't, so...

Question, the only 7625 loads I've tested were 124s and 125s. You mentioned a favorite load using 7625 and 115's that was hell on brass, but did it give you what Todd and Max like about 7625...but maybe flatter due to the larger gas volume?

Thanks for the info!

[eric nielsen]

I try to compare everything at 172/173 power factor. 8gr 7625 and 124s had more flip than I cared for. About 8.5 with 115s settled the dot down a lot but there was also this weird "feeling" that the gun was getting beat on. And the cases - I was throwing out quite a few with one firing of that load because the primer went in too easy.

From what I've seen most 7625 shooters use a 124. The only super-squad guys I can recall shooting 115s with any powder were Jerry Barnhart and Joe Kessler. [couple of names the young pups don't appreciate...] In 3 different guns of mine, the HS6 powder had this weird effect of shooting softer AND flatter going from 124s to 115s, so I just go with that. I also noticed that in PaulW's 9Major gun a few years ago. One day of being his guinea pig really narrowed down my powder likes/dislikes.

SP2 is awesome. Fills about half your case, shoots flat & soft. Not too loud, smells like War when shot. Used to be cheap, even.

[Sandro]

I have shot about 12lb of N350 thru my 9mm major. No one issue! It is somewhat expensive, so I am going to "try" WW Autocomp instead. I have a feeling I will stay with N350, but it does not hurt to try...

DVC,

Sandro

[MoNsTeR]

But to get back on topic, I guess that this isn't a substitute for N350, but N350 is a very unique powder. It is quite slow burning, falling between 3N37 and 3N38, but has such a high nitroglycerin content that it makes a lot of power per grain, hence the small charges in comparison to those other two. IMHO, and to some fellow shooters, N350 is a great choice for 9mm Major. I did find N350 to be a bit harder on .38 Super brass than some other powders I tested.

This is a minor nitpick, but like all VV powders N350 is single-base, thus having a nitroglycerin content of zero.

[Team Amish 1]

I'd like to add to the Longshot comments.

Dan Bedell recommended N-350 but since that was a pain to get locally, I did some research and have been shooting Longshot since January.

In my 5" 9 Major without barrel holes, it makes Major easily.

I am loading 124 CMJ at 1.170" OAL, right at 7 1/2 gr. Longshot.

Not too dirty, although not as clean as N-350.

I did notice that it meters a little inconsistently and appears to be temp. sensitive.

That's why I have a cold weather load (chrono'd below 50°F) and a summer load (chrono'd above 60°F).

All in all a nice cheap powder but I'd like to find a spherical, cheap powder that meters consistently.

Positive side effect, though: Longshot is a little loud...

[nYdGeo]

But to get back on topic, I guess that this isn't a substitute for N350, but N350 is a very unique powder. It is quite slow burning, falling between 3N37 and 3N38, but has such a high nitroglycerin content that it makes a lot of power per grain, hence the small charges in comparison to those other two. IMHO, and to some fellow shooters, N350 is a great choice for 9mm Major. I did find N350 to be a bit harder on .38 Super brass than some other powders I tested.

This is a minor nitpick, but like all VV powders N350 is single-base, thus having a nitroglycerin content of zero.

Didn't know that all VV powders are single-base. Now I'm not sure where N350 gets such a high caloric rate. I'll have to research this more. Thanks for the info.

[XRe]

Didn't know that all VV powders are single-base. Now I'm not sure where N350 gets such a high caloric rate. I'll have to research this more. Thanks for the info.

It doesn't have a "high caloric rate" - it's slower than most all of VV's other pistol powders, being faster than only 3N38 and N105. VV, like every other manufacturer out there, modulates their burn rate through granule size/shape (they're all stick-ish shaped, but of different sizes) and additives.

MoNsTeR is incorrect in his assertion that all VV powders are single base, though - the N5xx series of rifle powders are double base.

[eric nielsen]

Found an old thread on V-V powders and flame-balls: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32450

Had to dig and find old posts to recall:

--Tried Longshot & liked how it shot but so loud indoors that it scared me silly within 2 mags. Similar deal with N105.

--Tried Power Pistol and really liked how that shot but flame balls brighter than the Sun.

Primer deformation can often track with how easy the powder flows back thru the flash hole. V-V: none. HS-6: some. HS-7: bad. SP2: worst. If you use CCI small rifle primers it will probably not show up with any of those powders. Very noticeable with Federals.

[MoNsTeR]

FWIW, some amount of info on chemical content is disclosed on the Materials Safety Data Sheets for the various powders. Vihtavuori just publishes one for the whole N3xx series but I believe Hodgdon and others publish sheets for each powder.

[Bigpops]

Dudes...Gentlemen....Fella's...lets not get this topic closed. I am trying to learn here.

The PM feature is a nice way to communicate the negative vibes.

XRe - keep educating me PLEASE!