nYdGeo

Years ago, I used the original Black Bullets in my old 9x21 open gun. They worked great, I could use a lighter load, no lead in the barrel, accurate, etc., but over time they filled the comp full of lead due to gas cutting. Do you experience this with the Blue Bullets? Thank you!

That makes perfect sense. HS-6 is kinda fast for an open powder and has a lot of dot movement to me, but is so soft with regards to actual recoil. I've used N350, 3n37 and 3n38, but that was in .38 Super. Actually preferred the N350 under those conditions as it was soft, and it produced little dot movement. I recently tried someone else's 9mm major pistol loaded with N350 and it was as soft, but had more dot movement, likely just less gas volume? Then I fired some 9mm Major using 3n38, and was kinda stunned. It was as flat shooting as my pistol was when I shot .38 Super. So little dot movement! Just ordered some 3n38 to start working up my load. Great info here, folks. Thank you.

There is just so much wrong with that simplistic, short-sighted reply that it’s not worth the time to create a proper response, particularly when we all know it will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. Suffice it to say that there is, of course, nothing wrong with capitalism. It’s when humanity leaves it that it becomes wrong. This is not capitalism at its best. This is soulless, unethical, dishonest, greedy, despicable capitalism, and it’s at the center of what is destroying the country that I love. As much as these idiot liberals who want to give away the freedoms that we've fought for and the things that we work for, have damaged our country, our own U.S. big business has raped and destroyed it a thousand times more. All the information you need to know exactly what I'm talking about is readily available to anyone willing to seek it out. If you have no idea what you’re talking about and are not willing to put forth the effort to become educated as to the facts, your opinions are invalid as they are based on fiction. Stop believing that the garbage that you read in propaganda emails is the truth. Stop getting your 'news' and 'facts' from the Fox News entertainment program. Or, continue living happily under the current delusion. The choice is yours. Note that it is not unpatriotic to question information of any type from any source, and/or to question our leaders. In fact, it is our duty to ourselves and to our country as patriots to question everything. We also deserve honest answers from our leaders. Obviously, that is never going to happen. (The preceding is my opinion based on my observations and comprehension of information readily available to the public, and nothing more.)

Se post #8 pf this thread. I've shot this load through his open-class STI and was stunned by how well they worked. Extremely soft shooting of course, but was suprised to find that the pistol stayed comfortably flat when shooting these rounds. Good luck! http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=191301#entry2116689

You were kind enough to let me shoot a few of those rounds when my wife and I were picking up my STI recently, and I can verify that these loads are suprisingly soft and flat shooting. I'm thinking about developing a similar load for my .38 Super and then comparing them to my current 124gr loads.

He sneaked it in there

Over the past several years I read where several shooters have said that SP2 is the very best, and if they could get it that's all they'd ever shoot in an open gun. However, since they cannot get SP2, they now recommend shoot N350, 3n37, 3n38, AA#7, etc. This makes sense to me as though they may not have SP2's specific magic, these others are all of the generally slower burning, larger charge, higher gas volume type. Its very interesting to me when I read something like this. Here is an account of another shooter that since they cannot get SP2, they now recommend Silhouette. In other cases it has been 7625, another very popular powder for open. The thing is that these are not even in the same behavioral class as SP2 and the others listed above. They burn much faster and though they can work the gun quite nicely, any open pistol is going to feel and behave quite differently shooting either of these as opposed to any of the slower type powders listed above. I also understand that burn rates are only a small part of what makes any given powder behave the way it does in a given load in a give pistol. I'm not advocating one way or the other and make no claim that either is better. I can say that I prefer N350 in my .38 Super to 7625, but I ran out of N350 and have shot 7625 through all of last year because its what I had. I've had no issues with 7625 either. Its just that in my pistol, in my hands, I find N350 and 7625 to feel virtually identical with regard to softness, but find that I have obviously less dot movement with the N350. Many others disagree and we're all good with this. Anyway, back on topic. If you have the opportunity to speak with the same person, would you mind asking him for his thoughts on this...his praise of SP2 as the best and then recommending a powder with completely alien characteristics as his replacement recommendation? I'd be very interested in his comments, as they may assist me with understanding the reasons why many shooters today prefer the faster burning, lower gas volume powders over the alternatives in open pistols. Thank you for your time.

I know that this topic is old now, but I used #7 way back when in both 9x21 (EAA, first using 147gr and later 124's) and .38 Super (124gr)...I think it was on Benny's recommendation. I'm going to get some and try it again when my current open-pistol powder supply gets low. I seem to recall it being very dirty at first, but then someone told me to tighten the crimping die some small amount...been too long to recall how much. For whatever reason, that seemed to make it much cleaner. Not N350 clean, but I don't ever recall having a malfunction due to powder residue in either pistol/caliber. Something to experiment with anyway...I hope that helps someone trying out #7. Thank you for your time.

Now the fun stuff...working up a good .40 open load. Good luck!

Leo, thanks for the load info, and you are correct. We all perceive the behavior of a given pistol with a given load so differently, its often difficult to make comparisons. Its just that alien nature of 7625 puzzles me...it is quite a unique beast. I'll be shooting 7625 loads (7.8gr/124gr JHP) in a match this weekend, my first real match experience with it, so my fingers are crossed! shooterbenedetto, you seem to have a good sense of objectivity; have you ever had the chance to compare a springco and the STI Recoilmaster in the same weapon?

An entire crew of US shooters were disgusted with this situation 12-15 years ago, and a few still are. The rest of the world get Tanfoglio, and the U.S. gets...EAA. I know of several shooters within Area 4 that switched to STI, SV, and Para-based pistols as a direct result of their interaction with EAA. A couple of these are a well known Grand Master and his father. It is very likely that they would have gone to 2011-design pistols anyway due to the sponsorship, support, and overall involvement of the manufacturers in the USPSA/IPSC shooting community, one of several things that EAA failed miserably at. But dealing with the people there sealed the deal. After their last dealings with EAA over product support they sold some Gold Teams and Silver Teams (one to me), threw the rest in the safe, and now shoot STI and another manufacturer. I still believe that the Tanfoglio competition frame is the most ergonomically perfect grip for my hands, and I would love to be shooting one myself. I still have one, my old small-frame Silver Team that was a 9x21mm open gun, and is now a long-slide 9mm limited/steel gun. Oh, But my main pistol is an STI Open-Class pistol, and when I purchase a Limited pistol it will mo doubt also be an STI. This is not because I know of anything wrong with the Tanfoglio pistols being sold through EAA. I just have no interest in putting myself in a position where I may find myself trying to resolve a problem with a company that has shown me, in my experience, that it does not have a care in the world with regards to me or my shooting sport of choice. You have my apologies for the rant. This just brought up a lot of old, bad memories, and reminded me of how much I want that now 6" Tanfo Limited gun that I cannot have.

I have run 10lbs and now run Hennings 10.75 with no problem. That's with IMR7625 and 125gr Zeros making about 171pf. I don't have any experience with power pistol but when I ran N350 I also used a 10lb. Leo Its so hard for me to get my head around 7625 working well with that many ports in the barrel. Soft I can believe, but I have to imagine N350 shooting much flatter. For practicality reasons (like VV powders costing nearly 50% more) and because it does work in my STI reasonably well, I'm moving from N350 to 7625 for the time being. But, I have only 2 x 3/16" barrel ports and a four chamber comp; I can get right on that 171PF with 7.8gr of 7625 behind a 124gr. With 8 ports (much less 12) it would seem that gas volume (like what Eric gets from SP2) would be required for it to really perform to its optimal potential. What kind of charge of 7625 do you have to load behind that 125gr Zero to get that 171PF? Can you get enough pressure or gas volume going to keep it reasonably flat? Thanks! DVC

This is a minor nitpick, but like all VV powders N350 is single-base, thus having a nitroglycerin content of zero. Didn't know that all VV powders are single-base. Now I'm not sure where N350 gets such a high caloric rate. I'll have to research this more. Thanks for the info.

Sorry to ring an old bell, but I know about a dozen local shooters, all using 7.2gr of 7625 behind a 124, and all making major just fine. Very soft, clean, works very nice, but just not flat shooting enough for me, but it s being done by many nonetheless. Silhouette and its original (Action Pistol) are both very decent powders among the mid-fast burning, but the problem that I have with it is its sensitivity to temperature. A great number of open shooters used to use Action Pistol and Silhouette in this area, but stopped not because it didn't work well or was dirty, but because between an early spring match and a late summer match the same load could go from a 178PF to a 172PF. That was far too much for me. Anyway, just another 2-cents.

Thanks for the great input. I never got to talk to Todd about that powder choice when I was in his squad at area-4 years ago, and though I've known Max since he was about 14, I haven't had the opportunity to speak with him since he joined the Army! The info makes sense, too, because though I found 7625 to have a lot of muzzle flip, strangely enough the dot movement and the behavior of the pistol in general is very consistent. I may have not written some of my original post clearly, because I agree with you about N350 and the cases...at least .38 Super cases. Even at a 170PF the cases bulge far more than I'd like, though I didn't observe any primer issues. Very strange to see the cases so swollen, but no pressure signs on the primers. And oh man, if they would just import SP2 again and keep it coming, my powder choice would be made. But they won't and they aren't, so... Question, the only 7625 loads I've tested were 124s and 125s. You mentioned a favorite load using 7625 and 115's that was hell on brass, but did it give you what Todd and Max like about 7625...but maybe flatter due to the larger gas volume? Thanks for the info!

Not sure of the Vintage of your Competitor, I had two sold one, the other I did a make over on. The two powders that work in it best are AA#7 and N105 you need a lot of gas to work either the old 3 port screw on or the newer TruBore. If you really want to run N350 you need a better comp, and I strongly recommend the Brazos ThunderComp. If you have the screw on your gun is way nose heavy the Brazos will help that. I don't recommend the Bedell TI, which I now have on mine, it works good at 175pf but below that its snappy. If you have the TruBore version one or two poppel holes will tame it a bunch, I don't like the holes but my smith that bought my Competitor true bore put one in it and it shot much better. The slide on the competitor is very heavy, putting it on a diet helps as well. Other powders I tried you can skip, HS6, 3N37, TrueBlue, IMR7625, PowerPistol. TrueBlue shoots very similar to N350 just dirty and more pressure. I run AA#7 in 38Super and 9 major. It is chunky dirty at 170pf and clean at 175pf, I don't think its the crimp, but you could be right. 10.5gr with 125gr Zero JHP set 1.240, it will get dangerous at @11gr with a 125. Its been a while, but we talked about my Competitor before, its in my sig. Was I think a 2003, looks like a TruBore and my gunsmith says it is, but at the same time looks like a threaded version on a Bull Barrel because it was not perfectly centered rotationally, as if they have the comp slightly cocked to one side when they locked it on. Slide was taken from 12.5oz bare to 9.75oz, and two barrel ports (done in the fashion of GM Max Michel's) were added. That and tuning the mags are all that has been done. Would love to have the weight of a Ti comp up front, but haven;t found one that I like. Might try a light-weight steel like the Thundercomp, or just have a TruBore fit and the barrel ports redone.

I recently did a bit of testing in my STI Competitor .39 Super with assistance from one of my brothers (who has only shot 3 USPSA matches, all shooting limited), and the Master-class father of a very well known, sponsored, multiple national champion GM. First we loaded several loads of 7625, then several of N350 into mags, and then we all shot them, not knowing which loads we were shooting. With regards to softness, neither I or my very experienced friend could tell any difference; my brother thought the 7625 was a hair softer. All three of us unanimously agreed that the N350 loads clearly shot flatter. We did the same thing this time adding some loads consisting of 12.0gr of AA #7 behind the same 115's. In this second round, everyone agreed that the #7 load was not quite as soft as the other two, which this time none of us could tell apart. We also unanimously agreed that the #7 loads were by far the flattest shooting with the best up and down dot tracking. The N350 was next though not nearly as flat, and the dot movement less stable. The dot never left the lens, but danced around a bit. The 7625 was very soft with very consistent dot movement, just more dot movement. I guess that some of the newer pistols, especially the 9mm major pistols are made and tuned differently, and may behave far better with 7625, but the couple that I have shot were again very soft but not all that flat-shooting. At this time, I officially don't get the 7625 thing even though the GM that I referred to swears by it. All told its been compared in my STI to #7, N350, 3N37, 3N38, N105 and 4756. It is equal to the next softest powder, but has more muzzle rise than any of the others, and in the case of #7, 3N38 and N105, considerably more. Performance vs value-wise, I'm looking hard at #7. If you just run a very tight crimp, #7 suddenly runs more than clean enough to get through a few matches without cleaning. Still need to look at Autocomp. But to get back on topic, I guess that this isn't a substitute for N350, but N350 is a very unique powder. It is quite slow burning, falling between 3N37 and 3N38, but has such a high nitroglycerin content that it makes a lot of power per grain, hence the small charges in comparison to those other two. IMHO, and to some fellow shooters, N350 is a great choice for 9mm Major. I did find N350 to be a bit harder on .38 Super brass than some other powders I tested. My personal experience would say if you want the same, soft recoil impulse and don't mind some extra muzzle-flip, go with the 7625. 7625 is a very fast powder and I don't claim to understand how it works well in so many open guns, but somehow it appears to. It is also very nice (easy) on brass in my experience which is a nice little benefit I guess. I could have also recommended the Silhouette, but I found it to be very temperature sensitive which is a big no-no to me. N350 is such a unique powder...there really isn't anything just like it. Powder is the least expensive component; shoot what you like, what works. I hope that you are able to find a reliable source for it.

You're right on about N350 in a .38 Super. I loaded 1000 115's and 1000 124's using N350, which in spite of the small charge size is a very slow powder (just has a high nitroglycerin percentage, so it makes more energy per grain). I know of several 9mm Major shooters that swear by N350. But because of the small charge size in the .38 Super case, it is obviously much harder on the cases than some of the other loads I've shot, especially the 124gr rounds. On the other hand they felt exactly as soft as the IMR 7625 loads at the same PF, but were obviously much flatter shooting to all three shooters involved. I haven't tried Autocomp yet, but so far the nicest combo of reasonably soft and extremely flat shooting, with excellent rise 'n' fall dot movement I've found for my .38 Super is 12.0gr of AA#7 behind a 115 launched by Wolf SP primers. Cases look a bit better than after N350, primers are fine, and surprisingly clean. I do hope to test Autocomp soon and compare it to the #7 loads. I'd love to find something that shoots as amazingly flat as the #7 loads but with a smaller charge weight.

CoCoBolo, the gun info is in my signature: New 2003 STI Competitor (sat in safe for 6-years) Slide lightened from 12.5oz to 9.5oz Two 3/16" ports in barrel (through slide, similar to Max Michel's) 17lb hammer spring, 8lb var recoil spring You're one of the guys I've been looking for using #7. Thank you for that information! Ok now with the gun details its a little easier. Try the N105 first, you say you don't mind recoil so it will get you as flat as possible with your equipment. I have a Competitor, it may be Older than Alamo's firt load it has the bull barrel with the screw on comp, yours might have a Trubor. The TruBore is an improvment in recepricating weight. I don't want to start a fire storm here but my other gun which I dearly love is a std barrel with cone an about the same slide weight 10 oz. There is a major difference in the feel of a bull versus a cone comped gun, which feel you like may differ but I prefer the cone comped gun. Since my old competitor has a screw on and it was plenty too heavey and old school I put a Bedell Titanium on it and this improved the feel as well as the balance and pointability of the gun. I think your on the right track if you have the old school comp and or the TruBore from that era, it needs a butt load of gas to work and N105 or AA#7 has plenty. The newer more efficient comps work good with the popular powders but they work even better with these gassey powders, of course its all subjective opinion based on the most un-reliable source the human perception, but that's all I have to work with. Yep, mine is a pre-trubor, screw-on, heavy steel comp. I keep toying with the idea of a Bedell, or even one of the super-light steel ones. Either would be far lighted than the hunk of steel on there now. Thanks again for the input from everyone.

True, didn't notice it either. But even I got some info out of the posts that followed, so I'm okay with my lack of observation in this case. Thanks for making us aware!

CoCoBolo, the gun info is in my signature: New 2003 STI Competitor (sat in safe for 6-years) Slide lightened from 12.5oz to 9.5oz Two 3/16" ports in barrel (through slide, similar to Max Michel's) 17lb hammer spring, 8lb var recoil spring You're one of the guys I've been looking for using #7. Thank you for that information!

Darrell, you're right; we must have crossed paths! Wow, I haven't seen James Louque in probably 12-14 years, but he was quite a shooter! I still see his brother from time to time at local matches...I think usually at Amite, but can't be sure. N105 is a powder that I'm considering; reasonably clean, reasonably soft and way flat is what I hear. I've also read a few posts from folks that reported that huge loads of #7 behind a 115 still shoots reasonably soft and very flat. On the other hand, I keep reading where folks say that #7 is a filthy powder, but as I recall it if you're using a light bullet/huge charge major load and remember to crimp your bullets good and tight, it may not be as clean as N350, but it certainly wasn't filthy. Now I hear that during my 10-year absence from the sport, AA changed the formula for #7...so I have no idea. I wish that I could find more open shooters using #7 for more data. Thanks for the input, and see you at a local match soon!

Actually, 7625 has a very fast burn rate, kind of close to like AA#2...it just somehow magically works pretty nicely in open guns. N350 is very slow, falling right between 3N37 & 3N38, but produces a much higher caloric rate (more energy per grain) due to higher nitroglycerin content, so it uses much smaller charges. They feel almost identical in my gun, with 7625 being slightly software, and N350 being slightly flatter. Both are super-clean. I hope that this helps!

With N350, a great powder, in .38 Super with no barrel ports try 8.6gr with a 115gr, and about 7.8 with a 124gr. Add Barrel ports, go up two tenths on either. Not quite as soft as 7625, but a bit flatter, meters great, not temp sensitive, consistent...it works well. This is really a nice load without ports in the barrel, but add ports and you might want to go with something that requires a larger charge and produces a lot more gas volume.