Classification changes?

[Flexmoney]

Another thread brought this up.  I tought it might be a good thing to kick around on it's own.

1.  It seems that some classifiers get shot over and over, while other classifiers hardly see the light of day.  ?

2.  Limited & Limited 10.  The high hit Factors for Limited 10 are the same as for Limited.  This seems fair.  There are only a few "field course" classifiers, and they don't get ran at matches too often.  

Many have noted a problem though.  Shooters that have a highier Limited classification can go shoot Limited 10 at a lower level in matches...competing "below their class".

Maybe this would work itself out eventually???  But, the quick and easy fix would be to give everybody the same classification for both Limited and Limited 10.

3.  Revolver.  This one is just flat screwy.  The high hit factors in revolver are based on the Limited high hit factors.  (I think they are set at 90%?)

If you take a close look at the sixty-three(?) classifiers that we have...there are many that are blatantly revolver unfriendly.  Many require revolver shooter to perform mandator reloads, and many require standing reloads.  

That might be fine if the revolver shooters had their high hit factor based on other revolver shooters...but they are base on Limited.

If we go to the USPSA member's site and look at the top twenty in each class, we see that there are only 3 Revolver shoters that have EARNED Master class...and only 3 that have earned A class.

[Loves2Shoot]

WTG Flex!!!

I hate that I am A L10 and when I want to go to a match that has ton of long field courses and shoot the more practical limited Class, I have to shoot in B class. I don't really care about awards, but I hate taking them from a legit B class shooter. That just sucks, since the skills/equiptment are the same for L and L10.

[Chriss Grube]

Personally I think it is a stupid idea that you can be classed lower in other divisions. You should get one classification for all. If you're an A class open shooter that's where you shoot in all the other divisions also. Makes life a whole lot easier. And before somebody starts whining that it aint fair, life aint go practice!

[Chuck D]

Different classifications in Ltd and L10 serve only one purpose...raise additional funds thru classifier fees. Whether this was the goal all along is the question. Fact is...it isn't really necessary. Combine 'em. Revolver classifications should be a no brainer. We have the greatest revolver shooter in the world in our own back yard. Take his classifier scores and factor all other revolver shooters against Jerry M. That has to be a fairer system than using 90% of the Limited scores.

[cpty1]

I agree with Chriss Grubbe.  I have always believed that once a shooter is given a classification in any division, that should be the classification that shooter competes in regardless of division.  If you're B class in open, then you're automatically B class in every other division, whether you've ever shot in that division or not.  Your class would go up in all divisions as you move up in class in any one division.  Unclassified would be reserved for those new shooters who haven't yet had four classifier scores entered.  I think this would be more fair from a competitive standpoint to all concerned, and would certainly eliminate some of the adminstration headache at HQ.

[Gary Stevens]

On this subject I must take a different course.  While it is true that for many the same classification between  Limited and L-10 will be the same it is not a universal truth.  If you think there is no difference between them then I urge you to only load 10 rounds from now on in your gun when you shoot Limited.

There also is the factor that due to diminished eye sight, or other physical factors, one can have a higher classification in Open than when shooting an iron sighted gun with lesser capacity.  Bumping these people up to an aritifically high classification does not seem fair to me.  

I understand the possible reduction in administrative effort by simply assigning a universal classification based on your highest class, but I am not an advocate of a one size fits all process.

We are not all equal when it comes to shooting ability.  The classification system when used in conjunction with tournament scores has worked pretty well considering all the variables.  I am sure as all the divisions progress what bugs there are will be worked out.

Let's not make things worse than they are.

[Flexmoney]

Gary,

I agree that the highier class Open shooters often don't translate into as high a class when they shoot in other Divisions.  

What we are talking about with regards to Limited vs. Limited 10 isn't with match performance (and simply shooting 10 rounds).  The big issue that many see is this...a shooter will go to a match and sign up in the division (Limited vs. Lim10) that he holds a lower classification in...sand-bagging the system.

What the guys are reporting (in the various posts around the forum) is that guys with experience in the game...often A or Master class Limited shooters...will download their Limited blasters to ten rounds and enter Lim10...to prey on the (relatively) lower level of competition with their reduced class rating.

Many see Limited 10 as a good stepping stone for new shooters (along with Production).  A new shooter can show at a match with two of the most popular pistols being sold...40 Glocks, and single-stack 45's.  They can start up in the sport without the expense of having to buy magazines that equal the cost of their blasters.

Then they see some seasoned veteran shooter...with his $3000 rig...he wipes up the course with his down-loaded SV.  The new shooter sees this and thinks "it's and equipment race".  

(We know it's the shooter, and not the gun.  But, mister "new shooter" does realize this.)

If the shooters had the same classification for Limited and Limited 10, much of the incentive to shoot in the "lower class" will have been eliminated.

[Gary Stevens]

Taking the example you have given the shooters in question are M or A class that may be causing the problem.  The M cannot at present be lower than A class in L-10 and the A cannot be lower than B in L-10.  Neither of these shooters is in competition with the new shooter you speak of unless they are also an A or B class shooter.  If they are an A or B class shooter they are not severely impacted.

I think L-10 was intended way back when to be a single stack division.  Due to circumstances of not being clearly spelled out we have what we have now.  And as you know once things get established they are hard to change, sometimes rightfully so.

Hence we have held a very tight reign on Production to keep it as pure as possible.  Yes there are probably individuals that slip things through, but still it is being held as tight on modifications as possible.

Things have a way of evening out given time.

[Jon Merricks]

This is what I have seen.  An A class Limited shooter that is almost in Master class, with a B class is L-10.  When he shoots in L-10 of course he is going to whip everyone in his class.  I think the iron-sighted class should have the same class once you have had four classifiers entered.  

Gary, How many classifiers are there where you can shoot more than ten rounds without a mandatory reload or shoot ten rounds before running from one place to another.  There are very few.  We are not talking about matches but classifiers.

"Let's not make things worse than they are"

How are making suggestions on how to improve the classification system going to make things worse?    

[Gary Stevens]

The suggestions are good.  It is the action that can sometimes be bad.  I think it is called "Unintended Consequences".  Whatever is done, if anything, needs to be carefully thought out and approached from all angles.  If you don't you sometimes wind up with a camel when you intended to design a horse.

[noname]

Look at the reverse of this arguement. I hold a higher classification in L10 than I do in Limited. What would you say in my case? Would I be a sandbagger if I shot my single stack in Limited at one class lower than my L10 class? You would probably say no, because of the equipment differences, and that is why the single classification for Limited and L10 can produce a "camel" in certain cases.

[Chuck D]

I've been loading ten rounds in my gun since 2001. The majority of classifiers are 10 round neutral. The need for two seperate classifications for L10 and Limited simply doesn't exist. I'll stick to my overall belief that it's a cash grab by Sedro Woolley. Two different classifications that require two classifier fees be paid to USPSA and the ONLY difference between the two classes are the total rounds loaded in a magazine.

Sandbagging in L10 huh? I'm an "M" in Limited and an "A" in Limited 10. Less than 4% seperation between the two averages. When I go to a local club match I'm lucky if there is 2 other "A" class shooters and/or another "M" in the match. Usually L10 shooters make up the B,C and D class group. Sandbag against who? As far as L10 being designed as a single stack division...no way. I suggest Gary you speak to Rob Boudrie about that. L10 was designed as a division that used post ban ( after 1994) magazines that were legal to own by competitors unlucky enough to have state laws passed that effectively "backed up" current Federal Laws regarding magazine capacity restrictions (a.k.a. New York).

(Edited by Chuck D at 11:21 pm on Jan. 18, 2003)

[Gary Stevens]

Chuck I tried to follow your posting, but I may have went astray.  I'm sure you will put me on the beaten path again though:)

OK where to start.  You say there is no reason for two classifications, maybe so.  However I notice you are in two different classes.  Yes only by 4 percent, but still they are at this time different based on your shooting.  Also classifiers are only one part of the equation.  There are also tournament level matches that are more expanded and demanding than a stand and shoot classifer.

As to the money grab by USPSA, I don't buy into that theory.  Does USPSA make any money from the classification system?  Yes.  It is the third largest line item in the budget revenue.  However I don't think USPSA extorted any money from you or anyone else.  If you choose to shoot L-10 then you pay for 4 classifiers to get your card.  I think that is about 6 dollars in activity fees.  After that you make all decisions about what you shoot and how much money you pay.  I have paid for four classifiers in L-10 and it hasn't cost me one red cent after that.  I am at somewhat of a loss about the alleged money grab.

As to the L-10 you are probably correct in your assessment.  However I know there was also discussion about how to bring the single stack shooters back into the game and L-10 was the way to do it.  I don't think it was all one sided toward the plus or minus 10 round shooters.

[Chuck D]

Gary:

As far as classifiers go, I have one in the mid 90% range that pushed me over in Limited. Without that one..both classifications would be the same. Regardless,4% difference does not an ocean make.

Cash Grab, maybe too strong of a statement. Every time a shooter submits a classifier, he/she pays the fee. I know many people whom will shoot the classifier twice,once in Limited and once in L10 at a club match for a variety of reasons. Twice the money for the same function. If your using the same TYPE of gear and shooting the same classifier....why pay twice? Hopefully , that's clear enough for people to understand that It's not an inditement of USPSA policy but an observation of the procedure.

Single Stack Only. STI/SV/PARA/Kimber Hi-Cap models/Springfield Hi-Cap models/Glocks are all SHIPPED from the factory with 10 round magazines. Some offer coupons for pre-ban mags,some models have hi-caps available thru other means. I'm concerned with what a gun is shipped with from the factory. Regardless of the fact that some may feel that L10 should be a single stack only division should we EXCLUDE all these "tools of the trade"? L10 was an answer to the problem created by the Federal Gov't in regards to creating bad law.

[Fossil]

All this banter about classification, please, the only reason USPSA is using this procedure is to generate revenue, anyone not fully understanding this is delusional.

[Bill]

What is the purpose of the classifiers? I feel it is to put shooters in a class with like skilled shooters. Everybody is only off one class. Nobody can have a classification that is grossly above or below their skill "WITH ONE GUN" Some of you think that everybody ought to have only one classification. OK you open only shooters. Grab a revolver and see what you do. Or how about a Sig in Production. I was looking at the top 20 per class. There are GM's that only have a 30% in other divisions.

If anything needs to be done it is only design more classifiers. Some of the ones we have now have been around for 15 years.

Oh, and somebody set up 8 or 10 classifiers for Jerry M. to shoot to get Revolver straightened out. He is unclassified. He only has 3 classifiers listed. A 100% for his match win at the Nationals along with a 78% and a 82%. The percentages should be taken from revolver shooters not some other division.

Bill Nesbitt

(Edited by BILL at 5:52 pm on Jan. 19, 2003)

[Fossil]

Yep, delusional.

[shred]

Classifiers.  USPSA needs to:

A) Immediately recalculate the HHF's for all classifiers (up AND down) using the "average of best ten scores" they've claimed to, but never actually done (see some of my other threads on this topic).  Rob Boudrie or some other database wizard should be able to crank these out.

Put out some new ones when possible.

[Flexmoney]

I can be tight with the nickles...but, I sure don't mind USPSA collecting a few bucks for each classifier.

[Bill]

Fossil,

I've been taking pain meds. S'pose that has anything to do with it???

I was hoping the meds would help me design some cool new stages but nothing yet. Maybe I should mix with alcohol????

Bill Nesbitt

[Shooter Grrl]

---

Quote: from Fossil on 2:10 pm on Jan. 19, 2003

All this banter about classification, please, the only reason USPSA is using this procedure is to generate revenue, anyone not fully understanding this is delusional.

---

 Holy cow!  Dude, you're the first person to piss me off on the forums in two years of participating - congratulations!

First, don't call me names.  You don't know me well enough to call me by first name, much less call me delusional.

Second, so what if USPSA makes money?  How the hell else are they going to operate?  This particular service provides a HUGE benefit to their shooting community.  I'd gladly pay MORE to continue the classification system.  While it does have its faults, and could use some new stages, it's worth the lousy $1.50 (or whatever it is) to see where you stand against other shooters.  Grand bagging and Sand bagging are personal choices made by other people, more power to them.  It is NOT up to USPSA or their Classification system to force people to be honest with themselves.

[Sam]

    SG, I know it hurts when it seems like someone is targeting you on a personal level with their comments.  I doubt that this is the case here.   (I'm not saying that to try and correct you or anything.  I just don't want you to feel bad, OK?)  

     I fully support the way USPSA charges for the classification system.    For the price of a candy bar and a soda pop, I can see roughly how I stack up against people that I will probably never get a chance to compete against directly.   It would be OK with me to hold some matches by "big boy rules", where everyone competes for overall placement, regardless of classification.   It isn't going to make any difference in who wins.  

      USPSA like most everyone else, has to have a medium of exchange to trade for other goods and services.  So, unless you happen to be the Federal Reserve, Enron,  or some other form of counterfitter, you have to raise paper money equalivents somehow.  (Oh my!  That just sort of slipped out! )    Heck, raise it to $3 bucks for all I care.  

Of course, I'm extremely delusional......especially that part about the Fed,.....just ask any of my imaginary friends.    

     

   

[Chuck D]

Far be it for me to deny anyone the ability to make a profit but It seems a bit"long in the tooth" for a clubs VOLUNTEER workers to work all day (somehow fit in time to shoot) and net an average of 5 to 7 dollars a shooter when all is said and done. Raise the match fees and watch your shooters "vote with their feet" . Raise the USPSA classifier fees...watch your bottom line shrink to the point that you MAY not be able to raise the fees necessary to pay the rent on the bays at the host club. $1.50 extra may not seem like much but multiply it by 30 shooters, 8 months out of the year and you get $360.00. That pays for a great deal of range rent and targets for a season at my home club.

(Edited by Chuck D at 2:20 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)

[Fossil]

SG,

I do not recall you participating in this exchange of opinions much less calling you by your first name.

If you are “pissed off” every time someone disagrees with your point of view, particularly opinions expressed in a none abusive way and for the exclusive purpose of exchanging opinions, that by itself reinforces the adage “ If the shoe fits……..”

[Shooter Grrl]

Hey BoneDaddy - does his newest reply count as personal

Fossil, you need a clue.  I'm going to bow out of this conversation though - I'll see if I can't find someone that is allowed to talk to you.

PS - calling someone delusional in a one sentence post is not conversation, nor is it non-abusive.  I would really appreciate it if you could, please, contribute positively in the future.

CHUCK D - if you think your club should pay the people that work the match, take it up with the match.  That is definitely NOT USPSA's problem.  They simply charge an administration fee for processing classifier scores.  You're club can choose not to offer them, right?  

AND, my club doesn't count the $1.50 as profits or fees - it's USPSA's money, not ours and it's the price of using USPSA classifiers.