12 ga upper that fits large frame AR!

[Owen Sparks]

Rumor has it that some company displayed a 12ga AR upper at the Shot Show. Supposedly it fits on the DPMS, Rock River .308 lower and uses HK 91 magazines. Has anyone seen this thing?

[RH45]

Rumor has it that some company displayed a 12ga AR upper at the Shot Show. Supposedly it fits on the DPMS, Rock River .308 lower and uses HK 91 magazines. Has anyone seen this thing?

Hmm, THAT would be interesting!

[35WLN]

I believe it was CMMG and it was there last year at shot too. Unfortunatly, I heard they are going to drop the project.

[Y. Koester]

I wish someone would build one. That would be sweet for 3 gun.

[GentlemanJim]

Over two years ago...I built a 20ga on a dpms ar10 reciever set, it worked quite well.

I did all the design work for a 12ga...but dropped the idea

The problem is that ATF would most likely deem a new box fed 12ga as a destructive device. they did it before

Jim

Edited February 5, 2010 by GentlemanJim

[Y. Koester]

I guess a 20 gauge would work for 3 gun also. I bet you would be in open though.

[Wakal]

Saiga mags with the front and rear tab polished off fit in a CMMG 308 "G3 mag" lower.

Just sayin'

If a company were to, perhaps, build a shotgun upper (and ONLY a shotgun upper) that fit another company's lower...would the ATF be able to say a damn thing?

Alex

[J-Ho]

If a company were to, perhaps, build a shotgun upper (and ONLY a shotgun upper) that fit another company's lower...would the ATF be able to say a damn thing?

Be careful. Poking tigers with sticks is dangerous business. I do like the way you think though.

[SinistralRifleman]

Over two years ago...I built a 20ga on a dpms ar10 reciever set, it worked quite well.

I did all the design work for a 12ga...but dropped the idea

The problem is that ATF would most likely deem a new box fed 12ga as a destructive device. they did it before

Jim

Unlikely...they can only make them DDs based on name and model number.

On what basis could they claim the upper was a destructive device in and of itself; it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun and thus couldn't even be subjected to the interpretation of sporting purpose of not for DD criteria.

If a company was selling complete guns, much more likely. But as long as you sell 2 and 5 round mags for it so it can be used for hunting, it can probably pass the sporting purpose test.

BTW a 20 gauge could just as easily be declared a non-sporting DD, it has a bore over 1/2".

and here another thing to consider; even if somehow they said that assembling one of these into a complete gun by individuals was a DD (though the legislation isn't there for it), people would still buy them and register them on Form 1s.

DDs are legal in my state and all the states I shoot competitively in. Yeah filling out paperwork several weeks in advance to transport it out of state would be a pain, but I'd be willing to do it if the gun worked and provided an advantage.

Either way, build an upper and send it to tech branch for a ruling that it isn't in and of itself a firearm. If they say it isn't, and there is no reason they should be able to say just an upper is a firearm when the lower is considered the firearm and it still feeds through the existing mag well in the lower, you would have no concerns about them saying your upper is inherently a DD.

Also keep in mind that if they haven't ruled all the saiga-12s that are being remanufactured by various companies into tactical guns as DDs, it is unlikely they would do the same for guns made with a 12 gauge AR upper. Companies that are buying Saiga-12s to convert and selling as tactical models has already given them the opportunity to declare those guns DDs; they must be marked with that company's name, city and state because all that conversion work is considered to be manufacturing by BATF (unless the customer sent their own gun in to be modified). Thus a Company X Saiga-12 could be a DD, where the RAAC/IZSHMASH imported gun could still not be a DD.

Edited February 5, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[an1913t]

Over two years ago...I built a 20ga on a dpms ar10 reciever set, it worked quite well.

I did all the design work for a 12ga...but dropped the idea

The problem is that ATF would most likely deem a new box fed 12ga as a destructive device. they did it before

Jim

Jim,

Just curious. Was your upper built from scratch or did you use a commonly available platform as the starting point for your upper?

Thanks.

[TRUBL]

Just an FYI......I saw a 12gauge shotgun at the shotshow in the form of an AR15 over at the ATI booth. They are still working on getting it in to this country and as it comes, it is rough....but has mucho potential.

Tim

[RH45]

Just an FYI......I saw a 12gauge shotgun at the shotshow in the form of an AR15 over at the ATI booth. They are still working on getting it in to this country and as it comes, it is rough....but has mucho potential.

Tim

I think a 12 gauge upper, that fit an AR15, or, an AR in .308 would be great! I see a place on AR15.com that's selling .410 uppers that fit an AR lower, but so far, I haven't found one in 12 gauge.

[want2race]

ATI has the AT12 in an add in the SGN mag. Nothing on their website. I'm going to call them on monday.

[RH45]

ATI has the AT12 in an add in the SGN mag. Nothing on their website. I'm going to call them on monday.

Did you find anything out??

[an1913t]

I did some digging on arfcom, and it looks like there may be a couple of folks working on a commercial version of this idea. The two names I ran across were Bohica and Fidelis Arms. Unfortunately, I didn't see a timetable from anyone.

[want2race]

ATI has the AT12 in an add in the SGN mag. Nothing on their website. I'm going to call them on monday.

Did you find anything out??

I haven't had a chance to call them yet. I saw the video of the CMMG version to go on a .308 lower. I'd even take that! Rumor has it they scrapped the project. Bummer.

[GentlemanJim]

so many ideas...so little time

Jim

[want2race]

Yep....but if you make it.....they will come.

Recoil operated is my vote.

[DoubleDelta]

If it costs less than the $500 for the gun plus $2500 for mods like a frankensaiga, I'm in.

[JimmyZip]

I think the 20 would be cooler. More rounds wouldn't it? With a comp, it would be almost like cheating I bet.

[DoubleDelta]

I think the 20 would be cooler. More rounds wouldn't it? With a comp, it would be almost like cheating I bet.

Limited to 10 rounds anyway and possibly only 5 rounds in the future.

[RH45]

I think the 20 would be cooler. More rounds wouldn't it? With a comp, it would be almost like cheating I bet.

Limited to 10 rounds anyway and possibly only 5 rounds in the future.

For USPSA matches--yes, but, several other matches, like DPMS, don't have any capacity limit in open division, and for tactical, only 9 at the start signal.

[TRUBL]

I think the 20 would be cooler. More rounds wouldn't it? With a comp, it would be almost like cheating I bet.

When you say 20....you mean 20 gauge???

I'm telling ya.....that would be the ticket!! AND....correct me if I am wrong.....20 gauge magazine fed shotgun is not on any federal radar screen, like the 12 gauge???

[smokshwn]

I think the 20 would be cooler. More rounds wouldn't it? With a comp, it would be almost like cheating I bet.

Limited to 10 rounds anyway and possibly only 5 rounds in the future.

Slow down on the 5 rounds. First it is only a proposed rule in IPSC as in International, not USPSA as in our governing body. Secondly it is wildly unpopular which means if folks do what they should do their Regional Directors should be given their marching orders with respect to voting it down.

[JimmyZip]

I thought HK tried that a long time ago. Didn't they make a drum fed 20GA?

I like the ergonomics of the AR. Take that and throw a 20GA upper on it, wow! With a comp? What a fun gun that would be. Even if you're only loading 10 rounds into a magazine, that would be a hoot to shoot.