DCSigCZ

Hi Andy. Your question has almost perfect timing. I shoot my .22LR conversions 90% of the time while seriously shooting drills and training. I switch to 9mm just before a match and for the match itself. I am typing a response below, but have so much experience with Kadet and Sig .22LR conversions that I don’t have time to communicate everything by typing it. I will PM you my phone number so we can talk if you want to extract all of the wisdom I’ve gained from my head . I don’t know everything, but I do know a lot and am happy to share what I’ve learned so you and your son minimize your frustration and learning curve. I have complete .22LR conversion slide assemblies on 4 pistols and my AR and have shot over 7500 rounds through all of them. Lube is critical to reliability I use Slip2000 EWG (Extreme Weapons Grease) as my slide to frame lube. I use it because it is a very light grease, effective at preventing wear while maximizing reliability because it is not highly viscous like automotive grease. 1. I have shot my SP-01 with a Kadet2 (the all steel .22LR conversion slide assembly) for well over 5,000 rounds with less than 10 failures of any kind. This pistol even has an SA pull just under 3 pounds. I put a Dawson Precision fiber optic front sight on it. I shoot 40 grain ammo with velocity of at least 1230fpm - Blazer silver box and CCI MiniMags are the best for me. Accuracy is amazingly good. My Kadet2 to frame fit is tight - I need to push with just a couple pounds of force to get it on and off because there is an ever so slight interference fit. 2. I JUST purchased a SP-01 Shadow aka Shadow1. When I put the aforementioned Kadet2 conversion slide on it, reliability suffered - I was getting 5-10% light strikes even though this Shadow has a heavier main/hammer spring than the SP-01 I discussed in #1 above. The good news is that the round would ignite with a second strike if it did not fire the first time. (3) My experiences documented in #1 and #2 above are fairly common because the dimensions and tolerance stack ups of the lower and upper pistol assemblies affect how well the Kadet2 is going to perform. This situation has been addressed a number of times on the CZ forum, here are 3 important points from it. A) The previous responder is correct - up to a 17 lb main/hammer spring may be required to eliminate light strikes completely. My SP-01 has a mainspring down in the 11 lb range and the Kadet2 runs amazingly well on it. The Shadow1 has a notably heavier CGW blue main spring in it; even so it has had the light strike issue. Per the CZ Forum, I made a very slight modification to the Kadet2 firing pin and that cut the number of light strikes by 60%. I am continuing to work on the Shadow1 to get the Kadet2 to run as reliably on it as the SP-01 in #1 above, C) Cleanliness is also a notable factor with some conversions - some guys must clean their upper, in particular the mating faces of the breech and the back of the barrel, every 300 rounds or so. 4. I just bought my P-09 back from the man I had sold it to. I sold the P-09 and purchased a SP-01 Phantom because I absolutely love the SP-01, but I then discovered that I do not like the recoil level of the Phantom. In addition, there is no .22LR conversion for a Phantom. On the other hand, to me, the recoil level of the P-09 is notably less harsh and it DOES have a Kadet .22LR conversion kit! The short term bad news is that I just received my P-09 Kadet in the mail this week and my first shots with it will be this weekend, so I cannot comment upon its performance. Yet. I will share that as soon a so have some. I am looking forward to sharing what I have learned because, as a Certified Armorer for 6 different types of pistols, reliability is my #1 criteria. Any firearm that does not function reliably is too frustrating to deal with. More importantly, it is really a rock, not a firearm, and I will not spend $500 and up on a rock.

Thank you. I was not aware that the RRK also released the hammer earlier in its backward / to the rear motion. That is good to know

Urmaker45, I started a thread about this a couple of months ago, a hyperlink to it is below. Touch the first line in larger font and it will take you to the thread. I started it as an idea for CZ to adopt in a V2.0 design. Since that is but a dream, guys who responded then explained how they did what you propose with the current pistol. My conclusion about the question of legality, based upon their answers is - it depends. Check out the previous thread and let me know what your conclusions are. Thanks much!

Besides moving the face of the trigger rearward, what is your experience with the improvement in DA: less overall/complete distance traveled in DA? Any more mechanical leverage gained?

Urmaker45, that is an excellent resource, thank you. - It is particularly helpful because when I last checked 2-4 weeks ago, the only official Armorer’s Manual sold by CZ-USA for the CZ75 is for the Decocker model. - On a related note, a CZ Armorer class seems very difficult to find, buried several layers deep in a seldom used part of the website, and my perception is that they are for LE or Military only. Does anyone know anything different? Am I correct or mistakesn?

When you mill the slide, don’t you need to coat the slide to keep the freshly exposed raw steel from rusting? That adds cost also. I understand and your point about a new product. To be fair to the USA made pistols, hasn’t the Czech Republic been building and selling them so they are not “brand new”? 1) If the Czech made pistols have had time in the real world, they’ve had time to manifest design and manufacturing problems. I have not heard of any, but I do not know everything . 2) As a Manufacturing Guy, I would hope the KC folks learned from the Czechs who have been previously making them. (They may or may not have.) KSGunGuy has a new YouTube video out about his Czech P10F. It sounds like a good pistol.

Thank you for your reply je85. Note - the different size font present in various places is a bug in the site. I am not shouting in those locations. The larger font occurred when I cut text from one part of the post and then pasted it in another. - SP-01 has a CGW reduced power TRS, reduced power main/hammer spring, 85C trigger and reduced power recoil spring with stainless guide rod. The rest of the pistol is stock. - You mention a different TRS. The only one I know of that has different specs than stock is the Cajun reduced power TRS. - SHadow1 is used and literally looks brand new. When asked directly, previous owner who I do not know says no mods have been done to it and it has <100 rounds though it (for what that is worth). I do not see any obvious modifications. - Round count on my SP-01 is high, estimating 8,000 cycles or more in dry and live fire. i just thought of another personal comparison. A brand new Phantom 2nd generation I had was just like my steel SP-01 with a nicely discernible tactile and audible reset. And that was the same with it bone stock and fully CGW Pro Grade upgraded. That pistol had less than 100 rounds through it.

Really hope someone who knows the true answer to the question 45 Raven asked: Does milling material from the slide and frame to lighten it make a pistol (in this case an S2) illegal for IDPA SSP?

Thank you for the tips je85. Much appreciated. With the good reputation the S2 has, I would think they’d sell notably more of them if it was IDPA legal.

I am looking for help with a problem I am experiencing with a SP-01 Shadow (aka a Shadow1) that I just purchased. I am going to provide as much information as possible so that you can get as accurate of a picture as you can without seeing and handling this pistol, so please forgive the length of this post. Right out of the box, the trigger reset of the Shadow1 in SA was 95% undescernible. By that I mean there was only 5% of the tactile feel and audible reset in SA when I compare it to the SA reset of my current SP-01 with manual safety. (For reference, the reset of the Shadow1 in DA was approximately 2/3 better = 2/3 as discernible as the reset in my SP-01 so it is acceptable, but I would like it better also.) As a result of this unacceptable SA reset, I spent quite a bit of time operating the pistol in dry fire and observing what happened. I did that with the pistol fully assembled and with the slide removed so I could see the parts in the action moving. I eventually noticed that the slide stop lever was lifting up as I pulled the trigger. That is being caused by the bottom of the “button” of the slide stop riding on top of the left side of the trigger bar. The result of that = the trigger bar is being pushed down ever so slightly by the slide stop. And that appears to be causing the trigger bar to not snap up crisply in SA reset. Other things I checked: 1) The arms of the trigger bar spring are riding properly on the bottom of the trigger bar. 2) The trigger bar legs have no “gunk” between them and the frame causing the trigger bar to drag. 3) The trigger bar spring arms seemed to be too low when released from under the trigger bar, in the free position, so I bent both arms up so and they are now 3/4 of the way up the height of the trigger bar in the free position. After placing the trigger bar spring arms properly back under the trigger bar legs, the SA reset is approximately 40-50% better; unfortunately that is still very unacceptable and it is no where near the nice SA reset of my SP-01. - Has anyone seen this SA reset situation before? - Have you learned what the root cause was? - What fixed this problem? The “easy” fix that comes to mind first is to remove approximately 1/32” of material off the top of the left side of the trigger bar, but I am concerned that is simply addressing the symptom and not fixing the true cause of the problem. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Last week I told a friend an idea that formed in my mind while we were talking about the Shadow2 he just purchased. My idea is to manufacture the S2 with a removable weight part of the lower rail. The pistols that started this idea are the out of production Sig Sauer Sport Series, however, the CZ weight would NOT be entirely at the nose of the pistol as it is on the Sigs. Instead, the CZ S2 will have a removable weight that is a slim rectangle the full length of the lower rail. Weight attached = heavier pistol that still meets USPSA weight limit. Weight removed = lighter pistol that makes IDPA SSP weight limit. Shall we start petitioning CZ to make such a pistol? I think it would sell in high numbers.

I understand the concern with the warranty. OTOH if the machine shop does not weaken the slide by removing too much material and/or removing material in critical locations, it should never fail. Sig has issues with products, but as a Sig Armorer I have never seen a slide itself fail. Also, that work will not affect the FCU nor the grip which is "consumable" anyway. I see the great issue issue being the years and quantities that they produced pistols and R1s that had a proprietary footprint to force people to THEIR optic, then they say "Nah, we will now accommodate the strong competitor's product." What infuriates me about Sig is: 1) Their extreme delay between product announcements and their actual availability - remember the P320 Target?! and 2) THEIR DECISION-MAKING IS VERY POOR. Got that off my chest. That is all.

Do these magazines have metal lips at the top? If my memory is correct, their Glock magazines do not, the polymer of the body just curves up at the top and forms the lips. What is the ETS warranty if these magazines fail over time?

I run 17 round “Standard” P320F and P320CA magazines in my X5 because I shoot SSP and Production. The P320X series need magazines with the rectangle shaped base plate retaining pin in them - they have the tapered wings on them that the X series mags must have. You can buy those base plate assemblies from SIG as a stand alone part to convert original/old style “standard” mags to X series use. Or, as others have posted, you can file the wings of the original/old style base plates (with the circular base plate retaining pin) so they have the same thinning upward angle that the wings of the X series mag base plates have.

Rudder, thank you for the detailed explanation. I do not currently have access to a metrology lab, but I know exactly what you are speaking of and appreciate that you took measurements and speak with data. I had three P320s previously and currently have an X5 with a P320 Carry on the way. None have exhibited this problem of great concern. That being said, in volume production bad components can be produced without strict implementation of error-proofing. The result is a percentage of bad products and you obviously received one.

I developed the Armory Craft flat trigger for Sig hammer fired pistols with Milos. As such, the first time I m ever used a flat trigger was during all the prototype development and testing. I did not like a flatty at first (it was “so different”), however, after a couple thousand rounds fired during testing and development, I now greatly prefer a flat trigger. To me it is much more “stable” and my finger position on it is much more repeatable (my finger returns to a consistent position on the shoe). In addition, the ability to go lower on a flatty creates a longer moment arm, thereby decreasing the amount of force required to pull the trigger. If you are new to them, try a flat trigger for a minimum of 1,000 rounds over a period of weeks - shooting only the flatty, not switching back and forth to a curved one - to really determine what you like, what feels most comfortable, which one works best for you and which one you feel most confident with. Those are my $.02 for you to consider.

I need to know the difference in weight between a complete Sig Sauer P320 XCarry slide assembly and a complete original P320 Compact/Carry slide assembly. Your data is most appreciated.

Agreed, I just don’t want to break the grip/frame doing it. Hit it hard enough but not too hard...

Spec sheet says the XCompact has a 3.6” barrel. That is the same (within .05” depending upon which spec sheet I found) of the P320 subcompact - which appears to be out of production. So, let me be the first to coin the phrase ”Subcompact Carry P320” for the P320 XCompact, because that is what it is with a 15 round mag.

I have not shot the Canik, however, I believe my insight on the XFive will be helpful. First, my personal experience with the current XFIVE: - It is MUCH more impressive in live fire than dry fire. - The Gray Guns Competition Kit is worth every penny. It makes the pull notably lighter. So far, I have been able to obtain pulls at the following weights by varying springs: 2.0 lbs, 2 lb 5 oz and 2 lb 7 oz. At 2 lbs the break was not crisp enough for me. I went back to an old, strong trigger bar spring to get the 2 lb 7 oz break that is crisp enough for me. I might be able to put the SIG sear springs back in and go back to a lighter trigger bar spring to get a crisp break with a lighter pull, but I have not yet tried that. - My friends have watched me shoot my CZ SP-01 and my XFive in at least 2 matches and they say I am faster with my XFive and I know I am just as accurate with it. Second, with regard to the current XFive vs. the new XFull coming out: I would get the current XFive and not the XFull because you get the magwell, grip weight and 4x21 round mags with the XFive. Buying all of those to put in a XFull is going to cost way more than the a XFive costs, IF you can get the weight and magwell. I shoot SSP and Production so it was a piece of cake to remove the magwell. I do not need to remove the weight (which is a pain) and I bought four new style 17 round mags for $100 shipped. I could not buy any 21 round mags for $25 anywhere. Hipe that helps.

I was not thinking of long guns with respect to this thread, appreciate the reminder Tony. Since you brought them into the picture, I’ll join you by sharing that my CZ453 has an incredibly light, crisp and effective trigger. I’d put it up against nearly any match trigger on any size and style rifle. It’s as good as aftermarket triggers that are insanely expensive.

Lots of love for the Kadet 2 here. I shoot .22LR with it on my SP-01 lower 95% of the time and shoot 9mm only when I must. The Kadet is absolutely reliable. What CZ needs to do is make magazines that hold more than 10 rounds for it!

My apologies for interrupting the CZ Open Pistol series of posts... I have to ask a question: Since a few here have mentioned the P-09, does anyone view their Phantom as their favorite CZ? I ask because, to me, its ergonomics are better than the P-09 and its weight is still “light” but on the high side for a polymer pistol; mine weighs in at 31 oz. with an empty magazine. The grip also feels far better to me than I expected from looking at it in photos before iwas able to hold one.

I polished the FCU and the trigger bar where they contact each other. I also installed the complete Gray Guns Competition kit - sear, springs and trigger. My trigger pull force was down to 2.1 lbs. I did not like that because both the trigger release and reset were mushy. I replaced the trigger bar spring with the OEM one that came in the pistol. That raised the trigger pull to 2 lb. 5 oz. but the trigger action was still not as crisp as I need. So I next put an old OEM SIG Trigger Bar Spring that I purchased as a Certified Armorer spare parts kit right when the P320 was released. I installed that TRS because it was notably stiffer than the GG TRS and the OEM spring that came in my X5 that was built in mid 2018. That did what I needed - it made the trigger pull, release and rest crisp enough while only raising the trigger pull to 2 lb. 7 oz. Regarding a soft or indistinct reset: > Do not lubricate the action parts inside the sear housing. They are all plated to increase lubricity and fly against conventional practice of needing lubrication. > You can also try higher power sear and trigger bar springs. Regarding a choppy reset: > As a SIG P320 Armorer, it is always best for me to see and hear and feel the action in order to properly diagnose it via observation and logic. That being understood, here is a logical approach. > Be certain that all parts reassembled properly and are positioned properly. There are small parts and springs that can easily be in an incorrect position when re-assembled and then in operation. > Be certain no parts are binding during their entire range of motion. > Try higher power springs. > Be certain all contact points outside the sear housing are properly lubricated. > Test the entire firing pin block system for grit and roughness. This is an often overlooked source of a bad trigger system action and feel.

Pete, I was not aware of that. Thank you for letting us know that is an option. Buying those parts is certainly is a very low cost upgrade to try. If someone has spent much time and money working on their 1.0 to get it exactly as they want it, this could be an excellent way to retain and keep shooting that pistol while still improving it and its performance.