Bones

The 4" 686 is a great gun - good choice. Very versatile. Rules and honor aside, Short Colt cases in SSR are a disaster waiting to happen with speedloaders. You can run Long Colts w/speedloaders, but you will find the SC rounds are too short to reliably engage charge holes when in a Comp III or Jet loader. Short Colts in ESR are an amputation waiting to happen. How did you plan to make a 165000 PF with the SC case volume? You can run 38/357 in ESR for giggles. You will not like it longer term. It hurts. Bottom line: Short Colts are great in ICORE, not so much in IDPA. Do what the winners do, run 38 Special in SSR and 45 ACP in ESR.

Consciences in are dangerous compasses in IDPA Jane. Many have followed dark glow of their tortured, proceduraled souls into an Unknown Seductive Pernicious Siren's Arms, from whence they never return the same...

JMorris: http://www.idpa.com/matchresults.asp Re: Chamfering. I have personally seen revolvers with recessed cylinders win ~50 State, 10 Regional, 5 Nat'l and 1 World SSR Division Championship. With the right chamfering, they create a wider entry point to the chambers than a cylinder without recessed cylinders without negatively affecting headspace. While they are a huge advantage, recessed cylinders are definately not an impediment. You need to keep them clean (brushed out after every stage), but that should not be news to anyone who shoots a revolver competitively. Craig

JMorris and Jerry - Now go back and add the S&W Indoor NATIONAL Championships SSR results to your data set and report back to the class, You will need to add 3 to your K frame column (2008, 2009, 2011) , 2 to your L frame column (2010,2011) and 0 to your N frame column. Recessed cylinders, properly chamfered, are the only way to fly in SSR. Trust me on this one. Craig

To get started in SSR it doesn't matter - anything that is compliant with the rules will work. K frames have won more National SSR titles than any other frame size for a reason. With 105000 PF ammunition they draw faster, point faster, lock up faster, recover faster, load faster, and stay in tune longer than any L frame. I'm partial to the 19 and 66 with the older, flat-bottomed yoke screw, but all the Ks work better than any L frame of similar design. If you get a fixed sight one, sight picture on a blued gun is better than that on a stainless version. If you can't tell the difference between a K and an L, practice the "other stuff" until you can. I know Chris likes Rugers. Rugers are the F-250 of revolvers - rugged, reliable and big. You don't see F-250s winning a lot of big races, but they tow vehicles that do. Bear in mind that if you start with a K frame, you won't have to replace all your gear (holster, holders, loaders, etc.) when you can appreciate the difference. Craig

? I think we are both saying the same thing. Isn't that what I wrote - that only Single Stack 1911s may compete in USPSA Single Stack and that you may not use any Single Stack pistol -it must be a JMB 1911 design? Single Stack is not a "morph" of anything - it must be a single stack 1911. Niether IDPA CDP nor IDPA ESP specify gun or magazine design. You can shoot a 945, Sig P220, M&P45, Springfield XD, etc. in either. They IDPA ESP and IDPA CDP) are both more inclusive/less restrictive relative to design/gun type than USPSA Single Stack. If everything else in the IDPA rule book were as clear, obvious, descriptive and easly measurable as the CDP Division equipment requirements there would be fewer locked threads on internet forums. Craig

"Single Stack allows other calibers." Yeah, but "Single Stack" doesn't really mean "single stack", does it? It really means "1911". I can't use a 945, 745, 4506 or Sig P220, 952, etc. even though they have single stack magazines. This may be the only instance where IDPA is more rational/easier to understand than USPSA - savor it. Craig

If you don't seat your primers on your press, your first hammer strike certainly will. I don't know what "crushed" means, but seated @ 0.005" below the case head, 100 and 150 Fed primers will go bang all the time (and Win SP most of the time) in all my competition revolvers with both hammer and frame-mounted stock firing pins (67, 19, 66, 627, 686, 25 and 625). They all have DA trigger pulls well below 6lb. I have loaned most of these guns out and no one has ever had issues with them either when the dimensions I stated above were used. I load on a Dillon 550 and a 1050. Everyone I have known with problems loaded ammunition on a non-Dillon or 650 Dillon press. 3.6 gr Clays or 4.9 gr N320 and a 200 gr RN bullet is about as light a RN load as I could get to shoot reasonable well in my 45 ACP revolvers. Reseating primers on loaded rounds is the fast track to organ donation. Craig

When ICORE allows semi-automatics, I want my Life membership dues back, pro-rated, with interest (in USD, not Euros). Why would I (and everyone else) not just shoot USPSA? The tail is wagging the dog. Craig

If you define winning as using a practical revolver in IDPA SSR and ESR, ICORE Classic, Limited and Open, USPSA Revolver, Production, Limited, Limited 10 and Open, as well as carry , buy 6 shot 4" L frame in 357 Mag and have the cylinder cut for moonclips (you can tell enquiring SOs you had a very precise and agressive chamfering job should the need arise). There is not a more versatile revolver to be had. It is the very definition of Practical by any informed standard. If you want to optimize your equipment for any particular sport, buy what the people at the top of the standings are using.

Yes, the 45ACP chambering in a revolver is an unholy union born in haste of necessity, quickly abandoned, and practically useless, but, like many other vices, legal entertainment.

John, I am sure I did not need to see this thread to call you "crazy", but wasn't the 38 caliber Major Power revolver challenge addressed before the Hindenberg exploded? Will 357 Mag, 38 Special 38 Short and Long Colts not fit in your 28 now? Have you ever heard of a Bain and Davis 357/44? 44 caliber charge holes are even bigger than 10 mm ones..... Craig

That looked to me like IDPA. Do they have the same rules for Production? You are correct. You do not want to fire that 7th round if you are competing in USPSA Revolver - you will get bumped to Open. At least USPSA allows you to load the 7th and 8th round though - not as challenging as IDPA SSR or ESR with a 7 or 8 rd gun, but close. Seriously, you can, however, shoot Production, Limited 10, Limited or Open with your 627 in USPSA without needing to count rounds. Production is the best fit because it is scored minor (you would probably shoot 38 Specials), so you only have to deal with the 10/11 rd vs. 8 rd challenge - you can be reasonably competitive. It will probably cost you 1 or 2 additional reloads on most stages. Get squadded with some single stack competitors shooting Major (limited to 8 rd magazines)- it will help you learn to break down stages faster than trying to figure it out on your own. Limited and Limited 10 will require you to compete with major scoring shooting minor and an 8 round gun vs. 10 or 20+. It can be done, but not by the faint of heart. In Open you get all these challenges as well as competing with optics and porting - truly for those in dire need of extreme humility. You know, your area in WA is just one motivated revolver shooter away from having a functioning ICORE club. ICORE matches are by far the easiest of the 3 sports to set up, score and run.

Try ICORE or USPSA with your 627. You can run it in any of 3 Divisions in either, though Limited is probably best in ICORE and Production in USPSA. You'll get to shoot more with many fewer restrictions on reloading and ammunition type in both sports relative to IDPA. IDPA is a 6 shot revolver game in the current rule structure. Craig

At least half of the IDPA DMs are folks just like you with day jobs, mortgages, and families who simply enjoy the sport. DMs put simply put more - time, money,sweat - in that other Classifcation levels. Probably a lot more. Action shooting is a great way to spend a lot of time, effort and money fast without a buying a boat. Competitors don't make money in IDPA, they are the revenue source. Think of how you would like to be treated. "They" are "you". Excluding or including them from anything is excluding or including you. Craig

So, here's what we know: There is definitely a fault line - perhaps not called so - but a fault line in all aspects and characteristics save name. To avoid pedantic ambiguities, let's just call that point in space "it". Only the specific SO knows for certain where it is at any given moment in time and space, because, as we know, it moves as you do. Many SOs do not agree where it is, so what really matters is who has the clipboard, as they have the ultimate power in determining it. Some SOs discuss it privately on stages, some publicly and some not at all, but suffice to say one SO's it is not necessarily another's. It is especially entertaining at club matches where SOs move with squads, as it - either its absence or existence at any given point in time - creates a highly fluid and dynamic situation - and hence a lively discussion. This is because sometimes it exists and sometimes it does not on the same stage, its existence being separated only by time. It might not exist when you start, but it appears later. So you don't need to use it at the beginning, but have to in the middle or at the end of a stage. It also depends on what Division you are shooting, as it is apparently weapon capacity sensitive. Revolvers are especially vulnerable to it, as they require more of it than other higher capacity Divisions and it tends to be in rather odd places - places where it does not exist for the other Divisions. Interstingly, though time dependent, it is not consistent - for instance a Revolver shooter would be forced to use it because he has expended 6 rd 2.5 sec into a stage after starting in the open where it did not exist, but a semi auto shooter who took 5.0 seconds to get to expend the same number of rd and arrive at the same location and time point does not need to use it, because it does not exist yet for him. Or, conversely, sometimes revolvers don't need to use it because it does not exist for the first reload, but does for subsequent ones. This may or may not be related to the "fast" attribute below - I'm not really sure. It is also apparently light sensitive, as flashlight stages sometimes don't require it, but the same stage with the lights on does. This can be confusing sometimes, but it happens nonetheless. Sometimes they tell you beforehand where it is or will be. Sometimes you have to ask where it is or will be. Sometimes they answer when you ask with a location; sometimes they'll answer when you ask with the rulebook reference; and sometimes they won't answer at all because "you should know". Sometimes they tell you during your performance if you are past it. The faster you go, however, the less likely you will know if you are past it "during" because, if you are fast, you must be experienced, and therefore "you should know" where it is. For clarity "fast" means faster than someone else - specifically the someone else who is knowledgeable of it and enforcing the specific rule about it. Unequivocally, they will always tell you after you are done, when you can't do anything about it. ... and to address any ambiguities and inconsistencies: Someone, somewhere, at some time in the future will address some, all or none of these issues if they so choose in some way that made sense to them - and is agreed to by someone else (not you). They will tell you when they are done. Clear? In the mean time, I ask, I watch and I try to stay away from those places that are probably it as best I can. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not. It is the nature of the beast. In summary : it depends, just not on you. Craig

Chris, I run a 6" K frame and had the same holster issues when I started. Best bet is to have Hogue build you a Power Speed - they'll likely need your gun but turnaround is fast. Next best is a CR Speed which you can adapt to fit your GP or any other K,L, or N framed revolver up to a 6.5" bbl. The Blade Tech DOH option is also good. You can hack-up customize it to your hearts content as long as the trigger is covered and the gun will stay put when you move. You can shoot any ICORE Division with speedloaders. You can also have your cylinders cut for moonclips and be a little more competitve in Limited or Open. I'm sure the irony of having to "power-up" your IDPA loads for ICORE will not be lost on you. Craig

You were definately shooting too fast or intending to do so Dave. Slow down - about 2.0 sec/18 rd. stage ought to make everyone happy. Craig

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You are :http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=18298/Product/45-deg-MUZZLE-CYLINDER-CHAMFERING-CUTTER-BRASS-PILOT Lay off the espresso and you'll be fine

For all the "Short People": Hi Craig: So sad, it rained today, and temp was only 65o ! Last week we were in upper 70's ---- you should be out here. Just write snubbie as your 2nd gun category, it seems to keep disappearing from the application forms... ... You will shoot your main gun on day 1 of competition, your 2nd gun on day 2. You will not be allowed to shoot both guns on the same day. All main gun stages must be completed before beginning to shot the 2nd gun. See you in June, Art On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Buckland, Craig <buckland.ca@pg.com> wrote: Happy Monday Match Director. I saw that the 'Snubbie' category was absent on the IRC application. Was that by design? It was 12oF and snowing this morning - looking forward to sunny California... Craig Sent from my iPhone

For what it's worth, I ran a 67-6 (with the spring loaded yoke screw and well over 50K rd through it) at the World Championship in September without any issues. I also really like the 2-piece barrel system of the new Model 67s. They far and away consistently deliver tighter groups @ 50 yd with my IDPA and ICORE loadings than any of my older 1-piece barrel 4" K frames (10, 19, 13, 15, 66, etc.). Additionally, I've found I can get much better (to my taste) actions with the frame mounted firing pin system (on the newer guns) compared to the hammer mounted firing pin system on older models. I personally like pinned sears and narrow serrated triggers, so I fitted these to my new 67s in place of the OEM trigger. Other than that, smoothing out the action and changing the front sight, I ran the gun as it came out of the box I've worked with several folks who know a little about S&W revolvers on fitting solid yoke screws to the new system without any success. Our conclusion was it is better to leave it as it is and monitor wear, replacing as necessary. Again, the average user would not have a problem in several lifetimes, so the system functions and designed. Last year I used my 19-3 at the Nationals in Tulsa (flat bottomed yoke screw, hammer mounted firing pin, P&R, etc.). To me this means you can win matches with either system, they just have different operating characteristics to be mindful of. Craig

Mike, You can get all the measurements you need with a set of calipers and the scale on your reloading bench and prove it to yourself. The 6 shot N frame cylinder dimensions are larger yet. The new 67s and 10s have the 2 piece yoke screws. The -5 and earlier 66s, 19s, etc. and the like have the older, flat bottomed yoke screw design. If the full lug L frame isn't slowing you down, maybe you're not going fast enough. You can certainly drive an F250 on a Formula 1 track, you just won't notice a difference between it and an F1 car until you step on the accelerator. Craig

Why would that happen with a 686 and not a 66? Sounds like a matter of the retaining screw coming loose, which could happen on either gun, yes? Actually, it's physics. I'll preface this by stating it only matters if you intend to reload and fire quickly and a great deal. The average, casual user would never notice a difference between either the L and K frame firing 38 Specials in the course of several lifetimes. The yoke assembly is essentially a lever arm. The crane is longer and the cylinder heavier on an L frame, hence more force is applied to to the system during a reload. All that leverage, coupled with the force of (vigorously) activating a speed loader on the end of the ejector rod, apply stress to the yoke end/screw mating surface. All things equal (design, screw length, etc.) there is more stress applied to the yoke end/screw surface during a reload in an L-frame compared to a K frame. With any given screw design and material attributes, the L frame system will fail sooner. There is essentially no additional force applied to the system with moonclips because gravity is used to drop the cartridges in the cylinder, so the comparison is really not a valid one. If you switch the gun to the weak hand when reloading, at least you have a chance of supporting or catching the assembly before it ejects. The K frame action cycles faster at any given force applied to the trigger, or, conversely, it takes less energy to cycle the action at a give rate than in an L frame. The k frame cylinder is much lighter (esp. a 38 Special k frame cylinder) and the lock time faster. In fact, the L frame 6 shot 357 Mag cylinder is heavier than any other K, L or N frame cylinder of any caliber save the Model 27/28. All that extra mass creates additional torque when the cylinder is rotated. That force that has to be either applied or absorbed by the action components (hand, ratchet, cylinder stop, etc.). The bore axis is also higher on a L frame compared to a k frame. All things equal firing 38 Specials, L-frames will go out of time sooner, wear springs faster and require more general maintenance than a K frame. Again, this means a lot of rounds and dry fire cycles - thousands, tens of thousands perhaps. And, yes, K frames handle (draw, point, start, transition and stop) faster. You'll notice that the weight of the 686 "SSR" is exactly that of a 4" 66 or a 19 - about 39 oz - and the extra weight was removed from the end of the standard L frame full lug barrel - where it effects handling the most. At 105000 PF, recoil is not an issue. In summary relative to firing 38 Special cartridges at 10500PF, you are hauling around and cycling a lot of unnecessary weight in an L frame with no benefit. Craig

That's an interesting response. The fact is the lines exist now and are only known to competitors when the are yelled at, or worse yet, receive a penalty after the fact. So is the goal to do things better by perhaps learning from other intelligent people who faced similar challenges or only to consider options if they are 'not like X or Y'? Aren't the basic structural and philosphical tenets of the game (simple readily available equipment and scoring, low round counts and short distances, 'street clothing', etc.) different enough that they can be preserved and yet survive the removal of arbitrary and capricious rules? I hope, and believe, they are. Craig