teros135

Hey revolver guy, not to worry! Press checks are okay. People do them all the time. No problems. If the gun doesn't go back into battery after a press check there's something wrong with the setup. Moving the round that last 3/8" (or less) into the chamber is the easiest thing the slide does, and the recoil spring should do that without any problems. Unless, of course, you have bad ammo, a split case, forgot to remove the case flare, are using a 2# recoil spring, etc., and then you'll notice right away when you try to do the press check. Case gauging your ammo is a pretty good idea before a match, and that will prevent most of those problems. Checking the mag to see if a round has stripped off is pretty iffy. You could look at the witness holes, if your mag has them, but how about all those that don't have a witness hole for every round? I guess you could put a specially colored round on top, but who goes to that trouble? If you're feeling insecure about being in battery, you can check it visually, and you can press on the back of the slide, just to make sure. Folks do press checks all the time. It's not a real problem if the equipment it set up properly.

Well, you can't shoot with your feet or other body parts outside the box frame (and other fault lines), but you're allowed to stand on the fault line, as long as your feet don't touch the ground on the other side. I guess someone could start with hands on Xs and feet outside the shooting box, but they'd be in a pretty awkward position and would have to burn time getting their feet back inside the fault lines. Love to see someone do it, though, and watch the comments on YouTube!

Yep. Also, if the WSB says "standing facing downrange at the rear fault line with toes touching the Xs", it seems that the position requirements would still apply. The WSB and the rule book together tell the tale. Edit: As I'm reading 8.2.2, it says that the competitor assumes the start position as specified in the WSB. Then, "unless otherwise specified", the "downrange" start position is described. So, it seems that there would be situations in which the phrase "unless otherwise specified" in 8.2.2 may dictate a downrange/uprange posture if you're instructed to stand at the rear fault line with your toes or heels against the marks, with no other specifications. On the other hand, if you're starting with your hands on Xs on a wall or hands on a barrel I can see how the default "facing" position wouldn't (probably couldn't) apply. What say you, seasoned ROs/CROs/RMs? How is this being interpreted in larger matches?

You're welcome. Sometimes the rule book has pieces of the answer spread all over, doesn't it!

The glossary (Appendix A3) says "Throughout these rules, the following definitions apply:" "Facing uprange" is defined as "face and feet pointing directly (90 deg) away from the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop". "Facing down range" is defined as "the exact opposite of facing uprange", which would mean "face and feet pointing directly *toward* the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop". (Yes, it seems odd that they'd define facing Uprange instead of the more common Downrange, but that's what they did.) So the default start position in 8.2.2 is "facing downrange" (defined in A3). Various WSBs will include facing uprange or downrange, also defined in A3. It seems that these definitions have us facing all major body parts (face, shoulders, feet) in line, either toward or away from the backstop. No "funny feet positions" (which probably don't get most of us any appreciable advantage anyway).

If his trigger was accessible at the "179 (degree) mark" it's not a 180 violation, no? And why say he was given the "normal pass"? It wasn't 180 degrees, you say...

Well, most of the above is a bunch of opinions - from just a few people - that uprange starts are "dangerous" and "unnecessary" to the sport. On the other hand, it seems that uprange starts are used in a number of Classifiers, several with the choice of hand position, and also in a variety of match stage starts. Maybe it's time that somebody give us some real data - statistics, numbers - about the prevalence of adverse events during the uprange start. Like ADs, 180 violations, muzzle sweeps, and such. Not just a few anecdotes, but real numbers. I have the feeling that if this was actually so horribly dangerous the sport would run from it like it was the plague.

Are you a RO? (just asking...) In order to get a broader perspective, could the RO crowd chime in about how many times they've had a gun pointed at someone during an uprange start? Is it common? Myself, I haven't seen it. But maybe others have?

+1 We can do better, yes?

Why? If we needed to be protected from ourselves then USPSA would adopt rules like no holster starts (GSSF) or with no movement with a loaded/cocked gun (SASS). We're USPSA. If the simple turn/draw movement is problematic, practice - practice - practice!

Well, the uprange start is both common and traditional in action shooting. It utilizes basic competition skills. It's not a "DQ trap" - the competitor knows exactly what's expected and has (should have) practiced the movements. Looking at the picture in post #211 I don't see a muzzle pointed anywhere uprange. It seems pretty much vertical at that instant, and he's in the process of turning, so by the time the gun started to get to horizontal it would have been pointing toward the target area. We shouldn't forget that this is a highly practiced and competent competitor, and his movements are well-rehearsed. Isn't it about time to stop beating this one? The range officials, who were there, didn't see a need to call it as a problem - why are we?

Actually not a false assumption, but one that isn't provable before the fact (until time tells us who's where a couple of years down the road). And BTW, why do we have to refer to Eric Grauffel as "the Frenchie"? Eric is an action shooter, just like us. So he's from France, not Dallas or Cincinnati. He's winning, and he deserves it. The fact that he's French isn't really meaningful, unless we want to play the "you aren't from here so I'm going to make myself feel better by picking at you". Just sayin' ...

+1 It's time to stop beating this, yes?

One would guess the emphasis would be on "reasonable". Match officials can't make up rules, and there are rules covering this situation, as noted by posters above. In summary, those posting seem to feel that the gun is holstered (and under the rules for holstered guns) until drawn upward enough to reveal any part of the trigger, and is then under safety rules for shooting during the COF. After the stage is done (after RIC) I might mention possible safety implications to the shooter if he/she seems to be removing the safety before the gun is fully drawn, but it still seems that it's their call. Not a DQ, just info, in case they aren't aware how quickly they're moving. And, as others have noted, how fast are our eyes and ears, to see/hear *exactly* when the safety came off, relative to the draw stroke?

You know, whenever you hear someone talking about reloading "off the clock" when a reload is specified in the WSB, you know someone is d**king with the wording. The word game is so common it isn't even clever. Who on earth would think that kind of reload would be even remotely reasonable? The other little clue is the instruction that the arrays "may be engaged in either order"...

Who said K.C. is shooting a "Production" gun in Open?

i disagree. Classifiers especially need to not have distractions such as 3feet of target stick sticking up in the air. Looks like crap too Agreed. Classifiers, especially, are universal and are supposed to be the same everywhere. It's the only way to keep them even and fair to everyone. And where did we get the idea that we can slack off on the rules at "local" matches? If it's an official, Level 1 USPSA match, it's in the rule book, and there are several exceptions (also in the rule book) for Level I to help clubs that don't have as much equipment and props, to allow for some coaching of new shooters, etc.

I would also respectfully ask the RO what rule states when one must (or may not) release the safety, including a rule that speaks to the specific action that he's citing (in this case, "taking the safety off before the gun went horizontal"). You *should* be able to have a civil conversation about it, but if he/she gets huffy he would have to respectfully take the issue to the RM and ask for a ruling. The RM, of course, should also be able to cite a specific rule. (Just as an aside, whenever there is a disagreement with an RO, it is exceedingly impolite and unsportsmanlike to lecture an RO, especially in front of the squad, about his decisions, deportment, behavior, or whatever. If there is a problem, one should go aside with the RO and calmly discuss the issue, and if that doesn't work out go find the RM and calmly and privately have the discussion with him. I've seen it done the other way, and it's pretty ugly and undermines the ability of the RO to maintain order and safety, which he should retain until relieved by the RM, if that becomes necessary.)

This is how it can give the competitor an advantage: Let's say you are shooting production with a stock G17 4.5in. Your gun goes down and you have a backup (XDm-9 4.5, G17, M&P9...whatever) with a 2.5 lb trigger, heavier guide rod, fibers, stippling and lots of internal work that would still be deemed production legal. 90% of the time, the RM is going to let you switch...BUT, he does not have to in this instance because of the upgrades of your BU gun vs. the stock plain version of the original pistol you began with. So, no...Y is not considered a "better gun", but "a gun that gives a competitive advantage" because of the mods. But anyone else using a similar gun in the same competition would also have a competitive advantage, yet that's OK? Divisions aren't further broken down by type or number of mods to the gun. Either the gun is legal for the division, or it isn't. Using your logic, I could start a match with my bone stock Glock 17 but in the event of a breakdown, would not be able to finish with my CZ SP01 Custom. But if I started with the CZ you would allow me to finish with the Glock? You don't see a problem with that? This might make it easier to think about. The rule isn't about what anybody else is using in the match, it's about what you're using. If you start with a less advantageous gun (e.g., stock Glock/XD/M&P) and then switch to a CZ 75 Target Shadow, that's going to produce a competitive advantage *for you*. I would think the shooter would have wanted to start with the better gun, so why didn't he? The shooter chooses the equipment, and it's not considered fair to switch to better stuff later.

Nobody stays very long with just the two mags that came with the gun. If you're gonna stay, you get more mags. After all, you're gonna buy the ammo and gear to do this, why not buy the mags? Duh!

It appears in BE threads here and there. Another one is the "stage DQ", where you're DQd for the stage but not the match. Geez.

There aren't supposed to be warnings. However, a lot of local (Level I) clubs seem to do that for Chapter 10 offenses, for unknown reasons. Trying to be nice, I guess. It's not safe and the shooter doesn't learn much.

This is probably legal, under the definition of "draw" in the Glossary (Appendix A3): "The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard." At the point the draw has begun (per above) you're no longer under 10.5.11.1 (above), where you have to have the safety applied when the gun is holstered in a loaded condition. It can't be both at the same time. So, as soon as the draw begins, you would be able to disengage the safety - but as was pointed out above, at the risk of an AD if you do it too fast. I saw a guy with a Single Stack 1911 do just that at a Level I match, drew the gun and almost immediately fired. The bullet hit the ground only a couple of feet past his shoes. He was "DQd" but was allowed to finish the match, just not for score. Poor form, I believe. Since then I've practiced releasing the safety after the gun leaves the holster and starts to get horizontal.

I've heard that this doesn't always happen. Part of the problem is that the guidelines say "may", not "will". It could be that the MD didn't ask for classification status or perhaps there weren't enough "top shooters" in the Division. Does anybody know more about how likely this is to happen if you shoot out of your class (either winning it or just above it but below the actual class winners)?

Well, freestyle is a rule, but there are also other rules that define shooter actions, or limit them. It would seem that would be a legit short course stage (1.2.1.1) with 12 rounds, if there are no more than two shooting locations (i.e., can T1 and T5 be seen/shot from the starting position, and T2-T4 from the port) and they all can't be seen/shot from one single location or view. It also seems to be a legit medium course, which allows up to 3 shooting locations (1.2.1.2). Either way, you'd have to fix the WSB under Scoring, to say best 3 on T1 & T5 and best 2 on T2-T4.