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Rainer Bullets - Plated bullets like Rainer, Berry's, etc. can shoot satisfactorily in 9mm but there is little need to use them. For the same or lower price, Zero full metal jacketed are more accurate and are easier to work with. I recommend you start by using FMJ (or TMJ) bullets. Most load data is published for FMJ bullets. Hollow point and truncated cone bullets are by their nature shorter than TMJs. Their profile may cause problems determining the correct OAL for feeding and pressure concerns. A factory crimp die should not be necessary unless your M & P has feeding problems that can't otherwise be fixed. I use Dillon 9mm dies and they work fine. Titegroup is widely used in 124gr and 147gr 9mm target loads with full metal jacket and total metal jacket bullets. Just keep in mind that it is very dense and fills only part of the case. There is a risk of double charging revolver cases with Titegroup but that shouldn't be a problem with 9mm so long as you are careful. Lead and moly coasted bullets have caused some barrel leading and a very dirty gun in my CZ 85. I think the reasons include the high pressure of the round which may exceed the strength of the standard 92% lead, 6% antimony, 2% tin alloy and the fast barrel twist (1-9") needed to stabilize 147gr bullets. (I wish they worked better because a 147gr moly coated bullet over 3.2gr N-320 has a very mild recoil and easily makes 130+ power factor.) Your gun may be different so try a box of lead projectiles. However, I do not recommend Titegroup with lead or moly coated bullets. Its high nitroglycerine content makes it burn very hot and create more smoke than single base powders such as Solo 1000 or N-320. Pay special attention to the OAL (overall length) of the finished cartridge. 9mm is a high pressure round and pressures can increase dramatically when the OAL is shortened. My rule is to make the round as long as possible that gives reliable feeding and does not contact the lands of the barrel. To find this point, you need to take your barrel out of the gun and use it as a case gauge. Make a dummy round at the maximum length, put a mild taper crimp on it and drop it into the chamber. Shorten the OAL until it drops completely into the chamber, then shorten it by no more than.005" to make sure it isn't resting against the lands. Then lock the slide back, put the dummy round in a magazine, and release the slide to see if it feeds smoothly. Keep your eye above the slide and watch it go into the chamber. Does it feed with a click (good), clunk-click, or clumk-clunk? If you are industrious, fill the mag with dummy rounds and see how the OAL and crimp feeds as the top round of a full mag. Some mags feed differently when fully loaded. Make 30 or 40 at this OAL and crimp and head to the range. Shoot for accuracy and reliable feeding. If everything works right (which it probably will), you are good to go. For much more information on this topic, go to the following link on the CZ forum. http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?board=33.0 Welcome to the world of Production shooting.

In addition to weighing less, the cylinder stop notches wear and change shape very little compared to stainless cylinders. This should increase the life of the cylinder especially if you dry-fire a lot. Chris

N-320 is the cleanest Solo 1000 not far behind WST can be clean but there is no published data for it with 9mm jacketed or cast that I could find. IMO, you don't need to use really fast powders like N-310 or Clays in 9mm. Lead bullets already shoot very softly with N-320 or Solo 1000.

My experiments with WSF in .45 acp also yielded very high extreme spreads of well over 100fps in my SW 625 revolver. I used one kind of brass and Federal Primers. Accuracy wasn't all that great and the loads were dirty. The take home lesson is that WSF does much better with higher pressures found in 9mm, .40 cal, and 10 mm.

With 115gr Montana Gold FMJ bullets, one of my favorite accuracy loads was 5.3gr Winchester Super Field. With the copper clad Zero bullets, you can probably go down to 5.1or 5.2 gr WSF. Another good load is about 4.8 gr of Hodgdon Universal which shot very clean with a quiet muzzle report. IMR 4756 is also a good powder for lighter bullets. I've shot up 2 lbs of it in the past in my 9mm. Check Hodgdon's website for load details. The published velocities for 4756 were very close to the results I got with 124gr and 115gr bullets. Plus it has a pleasant aroma. 115gr loads will not shoot as softly as 124 or 147gr loads, but the recoil with them is not that bad. You and your gun might like the faster recoil pulse and flatter shooting of the 115gr projectile. Chris

4.8gr American Select with a Winchester, Remington, or Magtech primer should easily reach 170 to 175 PF in most semi-automatics with a 4.5" barrel.

My first choice for 230gr lead bullets is N-310, then Clays. For less smoke, use a moly coated projective from Billy Bullets or Precision Bullets. I would use N-320, WST, or American Select with 200gr bullets. Chris

My technique is to invert about 20 cases on a piece of newspaper or an old towel. Spray one side of the cases with a mixture of lanolin and rubbing alcohol. Use a lubed case every fifth round or so or when the die starts dragging. Never had any problems. Chris

I think your Titegroup charges may be a little light. In my experience, low to mid pressure Titegroup loads create residue around the cylinder and muzzle in .38 spl and .45 acp revolvers. However, I've never seen must debris or unburned powder from Titegroup, especially with plated or jacketed bullets. According to Hodgdon's 2010 Annual Manual, the loads for Titegroup with a 230gr lead RN range 4.0 to 4.8 gr. The loads for a 230gr Hornady FMJ FP range from 4.4 to 4.8. I'd try 4.4 gr with your heavy Rainer bullets and see if you get a cleaner burn. Although Titegroup smokes like mad with lead bullets, I've had good results using it with plated bullets in .38 spl and 9mm. I'll try it soon with some 185gr Berry Hollow Base RN in my 625. Chris

VV N-320 is excellent with heavy lead bullets in 9mm. If N-320 and Solo 1000 are not available, I'd go with WST in 3.0 to 3.3 gr charges. Chris

For me, 200 gr bullets seem to have a faster recoil impulse and less muzzle rise that 230gr bullets. When my grip and stance are just right (which isn't often), I can get the front sight back down on the target quicker. The slightly stiffer recoil is hardly noticeable. BTW, some folks use 4.2gr Clays with 200gr lead bullets. You will have to check this combination with a chrono to see if it meets PF in your revolver. Chris

If you have a 5" barrel, a 230gr lead (or moly-coated) round nose and 3.7 to 4.0gr Clays (not Universal or International Clays) will get the job done. VV N-310 can also be used up to 4.0gr with good results. For 200gr bullets, I use a Bear Creek 200gr moly-coated lead round nose over 5.1 to 5.2gr American Select. A lead 200gr round nose flat point can be used for practice sessions with the same powder charges. Winchester Super Target or Solo 1000 can also be used with 200gr bullets. Finally, there is the Berry's 185gr hollow base round nosed plated bullet that I've tried over 5.4 gr Winchester Super Target. Velocities among revolvers can vary widely due to differences in chamber size, throat diameters, cylinder - barrel gap, forcing cone cut, barrel diameter and who knows what else. You'll need to chrono your loads to get the right PF.

4.0 to 4.1gr Titegroup under a 124gr Zero FMJ. PF is between 132 and 136. N-320 can be substituted for Titegroup at the same charge weights. Former load was 115gr Montana Gold FMJ over 5.3gr Winchester Super Field. CZ85 Combat

I have had Planenut's exact same problem using Zero 230 FMJ loaded at 1.265 in a brand new STI Trojan. The top round nosedived into the bottom of the ramp. This happened all the time with the mags Brazos Custom sold with it. It happened some of the time with Chip McCormick Power Mags. I reduced the OAL to 1.255 and the first round feed problems pretty much disappeared with the Power Mags but remained with the "stock" STI mags. Note: The first 150 rounds I shot through it were Magtech 230gr FMJ with 1.265 OAL, all of which fed flawlessly with the stock mags. I'm beginning to think there's something about the profile of the 230gr Zeros that doesn't agree with my STI. I'll try loading some at 1.275 and another batch at 1.245 and see which works best. Chris

Hello: There is little load data available anywhere for plated bullets. The general wisdom is that loads for plated bullets lie between loads for lead and jacketed bullets. This is consistent with my personal experience with 9mm plated bullets. The same velocity could be achieved with a plated bullet with approximately 90 to 93% of the powder used for a FMJ. (This was using Winchester Super Field and Universal.) The Alliant 2004 Manual lists the maximum load for a 9mm 124gr FMJ or lead bullet as 4.9 gr. Their minimum loads should be about 10% less or 4.4 gr. You load appears to well below minimum and might lead to a squib or a bullet stuck in the barrel. However, if the gun functions well and you haven't had any problems, you might keep using it. Chris

3.1 to 3.3gr of VV N-320 should give around 130pf and a very soft shooting load with any 147gr moly coated bullet in your 9mm. You might also try a similar amount of Winchester Super Target but be warned that there is little, if any, published load data for WST in 9mm. Chris

My best results with lead bullets in my CZ 85 Combat have come with Oregon Trail's very hard lead bullets (122gr truncated cone) and N-320 powder. However, since these bullets are more expensive than Zero bullets, I shoot jacketed almost exclusively in 9mm It seems that any standard 92% lead 6% antimony, 2% tin bullets, whether straight lead or moly coated, seem to leave lots of deposits in the barrel that affect accuracy after about 75 shots. I attribute this to the barrel's fairly fast twist rate and the higher pressure of 8mm loads. That said, some of my favorite plinking loads are 135gr and 147gr lead (or moly coated) bullets with N-320 powder. On the other hand, I get very good results with almost any kind of 200gr .45acp hard cast bullet in my CZ 97b. Chris

Hello: Solo 1000 has burned cleanly in all my .45acp applications. It meters fairly well for a flake powder. The Accurate Powders online guide recommends 4.6gr to 5.1gr with a 230gr lead round nose and 4.9gr to 5.5gr with a Nosler 230 FMJ. Here are my results for Solo 1000 with 230gr Zero FMJ bullets in a 5" 1911. As you can see, Solo 1000 is capable of much more powerful loads than Clays in .45 acp. 230gr Zero Win Cases Win LP Primer 5.2gr Solo 1000 1.265" .471" LO 834 HI 876 AV 856 ES 42 SD 13.90

Six: Your latest data is consistent with my results. Two ten round strings of 3.1gr N-320 under 147 Bear Creek Moly-Coated bullets in FC cases with Win small pistol primers gave the following results: Hi 895 893 Lo 866 869 Av. 879.4 878.9 Ex Sp 28.15 23.30 SD 10.81 8.71 PF 129.27 129.19 Weapon is a CZ 85. These were the softest shooting 9mm rounds I've ever used. Too bad lead and moly coated bullets don't agree with my CZ's barrel. Chris

Shooting major is far above .38spl +P loads. I shot both minor (.37spl) and major (.357mag) with my Ruger GP100 and I estimate that the major loads were between 25,000 and 30,000 psi with 140 and 158gr lead bullets. Looking back, my scores shooting major were little, if any, better than shooting minor. You have a revolver designed to shoot .38 spl so shoot minor loads with heavier lead bullets (158 gr and up), shoot the A zone as fast as you can, and practice your reloads. Medium-fast powders like N-320, Solo 1000, American Select, Bullseye, or Titegroup should serve you well. Three more things to consider. When shooting .38 spl loads in my Ruger GP-100, it was very easy to reload the cylinder. I switched to .357 magnum and the cylinder would be very hot after 12 rounds and too hot to touch with bare skin after 18 or 24 rounds. I had to put white medical tape over the ends of the third and fourth fingers of my left hand to avoid burns while I manipulated the cylinder when reloading. The .357 mag loads blew a lot more hot gases and lead from the B-C gap, even with the gun timed perfectly. I then had to wrap the end of my left thumb (I have long fingers) with white med tape to protect it from the hot gases and lead while I shot. I was quite a sight. Finally, the recoil and blast from major loads in a small to medium framed revolver should not be underestimated, especially in a long match. The key to this game is to have accurate and reasonably fast first and second shots. Flinch reactions and fatigue can come on more quickly than you think when shooting hot loads from a small or medium framed revolver. My advice is to enjoy your Taurus with the .38 spl rounds it was designed to shoot. Chris

3.8gr of N-310 and 230gr hardcast lead bullets makes about 170 PF in my 625-3 with a 5" barrel. It burns very cleanly with less smoke and is more consistent that the same load with Clays.

Here is some data from today's tests Temp 90 Weapon: my new STI 1911 Trojan, 5" barrel 230gr Zero Bullets 4.75gr American Select Speer cases 1.640" .472" CCI Large Pistol Magnum 8 shot strings LO 842 821 HI 850 858 AV 849 834 ES 9 37 SD 5 13.9 Same as above with mixed cases LO 824 HI 852 AV 839 ES 27 SD 9.69 230 gr. Zero FMJ Win LP Primer 4.6 gr American Select 1.267" .472" Mixed cases LO 760 760 HI 857 818 AV 799 796 ES 97 58 SD 20.6 16.61 I'd have to try some sub minimum loads to get a usable PF with American Select. 230gr Zero 4.4 WST CCI LP Magnum 1.265" .471" Speer cases Win Cases LO 758 774 HI 815 813 AV 787 790 ES 57.94 39.26 SD 18 13 230gr Zer0 4.5 gr WST Win LP Primer 1.265" .471" R-P cases Fed cases LO 790 764 HI 805 814 AV 796 790 ES 15 50 SD 5.19 14.66 It looks like 4.2gr WST will be just about right and still within book loads. It's nice to see some low extreme spreads with WST; I got some fairly large extreme spreads with WST and 200gr bullets in my revolver. And finally, the load I began with 230gr Zero Win Cases Win LP Primer 5.2gr Solo 1000 1.265" .471" LO 834 HI 876 AV 856 ES 42 SD 13.90 This load had the more smoke than the others .Although it was stout, it still felt manageable with the 1911.

"outdated molds for coated bullets with unnecessary lube groove that makes loading harder" I can't figure why having a lube groove on a moly coated bullet makes it any harder to load than a normal lead bullet. I haven't shot any Bayou Bullets but Billy Bullets (which have a lube groove) shoot just fine out of my guns and up to 50fps faster than hard cast .45acp lead with the same powder charge, primer, and brass. In fact, I find that with moly coated bullets without a lube groove (Precision and Bear Creek), I have to increase the powder charge substantially to get the same PF. I'm pretty sure it's due to the longer bearing surface of bullets without a lube groove. Chris

++1. I really like the Microdot front sight on my new STI. The sight is narrow, allowing more light on either side, making it easier to both call shots and make better precise shots. I hardly notice the dot when shooting in bright light. However, in dimmer light or in the shade, the dot is bright enough to see quickly and pick up the front sight. Chris

Hello: I need a load for American Select with 230 Zero FMJ bullets. I'll use Win, Magtech, or CCI primers. OAL is 1.265. Weapon is STI Trojan, 5" barrel. Desired PF 170-175. The Alliant website doesn't have much useful information about this combination. Thanks, Chris